I can't believe the number of posts! Not many were on the topic which I think is really the crux of the disagreement.
I had a great summer. The Olympics were amazing as was China. Really had a blast. Came back and got some more surfing in and then took delivery on a new boat for the kids. OMG! What a blast! They were ripping hanging out on the trapeze.
I see that Epic finally is puttering allomng with some banner ads. Now that they're advertising they should really invite the banned back. Controversy and excitement is how you not only break through to new ideas but also how you attract more eyeballs.
HHV (Harald Harb Envy)....it's a disease that seems to infect the pin chasers especially the ones on Epic. Interesting that those are the PSIA crowd that also lack real skiing skills.
Flexon keeps harping about what a real skier is. For me I know them when I see them. I know I ahvenm't seen any that are part of the Epic crew.
367 comments:
1 – 200 of 367 Newer› Newest»You'll never learn. Will ya. PMtS is not the way to go. You all are like a bunch of crybabies because you can no longer post on Epic ( a superior professional site ). No one ever posts on PMtS because of the heierarchy on that site (all 3 of them). So, your only recourse is this blog.
By the way, I have yet to see a video on PMtS of anyone that can ski.
While were at it, lets see a video of your skiing.... If it's as good as your spelling in your blog entry we all be amazed. I can hardly wait.
PK
Plenty of video that shows PMTS works.
Is there any video that shows ESA works?
Yo, PK! Any mouse has made several comments here and can still post on Epic. He recognizes many other Epic posters' writing,,,and they can still post on Epic. Get your facts straight.
I've never met VS1, but I've read enough of his/her posts to know that VS1 knows more about skiing than SSH and the other Epic pin-chasers all put together. Of course, it should be embarrassing enough to PSIA and Epic that VS1 can ski circles around Nolo given her lofty epic status and years as an exalted PSIA official, but it's more telling to note that he can outski them all put together.
It's not really about PMTS vs PSIA. It's about good skiing (what racers, world-class bumpers, and other elite skiers do) vs the industry status quo. About dynamic balance and efficient movements vs static park-n-ride and a statically stable stance. And most of all it's about that static mindset meme leaping over from ski instruction to epic management using PSIA certs as the infection vector.
So, if he can ski circles around Nolo and all the pin chasers. Lets see his video then. Plus you must be visually gifted to comment on his skiing. Seeing that you hve never met him, nor has he yet ever posted a video of his skiing. ;-)
So crawl back into your PMtS world, and drink the breakfat koolaid of imaginary skier wanna be's.
' cause it seems to me that they are the ones always chasin' the PSIA pin wearers.
I can feel a banning coming on! BigE must be close to a midnight visit by the Epic Gestapo, he is espousing objectivity in skiing technique. Crikey! if that happens the general public might seek out a freely available fully documented modern system of coaching and learn to really ski.
What a pompous ass. I asked what constitutes a "skier", in typical fashion the question was turned around this case to "Real Skier", thats fine, I'll still play. So according to your lofty standards it is ability that makes someone a "real" skier, not desire or commitment to the sport? My in laws who ski 60+ days a year and by no means are experts at sliding down a down a hill, with out your seal of approval, I cannot call them skiers yet. EXACTLY what qualifies someone as a real skier? Do you have a check list?
Who of the Epic crew have you seen and why are they not real skiers? You say have skied with and know Bob Peters, yet he has no clue who you are, is he a "skier" Does Bob have your "VS1 Real Skier Seal"?
Phil
I think Harold was talking about the 'experts' that post in the instructional forums on Epic.
You think? Did he mean the instructors or Experts? or ALL people on Epic?
You think? Did he mean the instructors or Experts? or ALL people on Epic?
PSIA instructors and 'experts' that post at the instruction forums.
PMtS is not the way to go.
PMTS is the fastest way for a recreational skier to improve.
remember, anyone is an expert skier... as long as you buy all the books, attend all the camps, and worship.
remember, anyone is an expert skier... as long as you post in the ski instrucion forum on epic, don't posted video, and worship BB and the importan rotary skill.
Originally posted by SkiMangoJazz
"In the eyes of the general skiing public most Instructors are above middling skills."
"If you analyzed the skills of 10's of thousands of skiers I think you'd find that the skill of most LII PSIA Instructors in comparison is far above "middling", and that most LI Instructors are certainly far above "low.""
Hahahahahahahahahaha
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
OMG, thanks for the laugh!
OK, kids. You're tired and kranky, and it's time for a nap.
Those of you who like HH bedtime stories come with me and we'll look at the pretty pictures in Harald's books.
The rest of you can go read whatever kind of bedtime stories it is that your type of skier reads.
It's time to hibernate until it snows. (... and no peeking at Epic, or they'll get ad revenue from it)
------
just saw the latest post...
Leave poor SkiMangoJazz alone for now -- he's a product of his environment and a victim of the North American ski industry establishment. We all saw his MA video and have read his self-assessments predating the video. His old self-assessment and his video are consistent with his current statement ... even if many of us strongly disagree with the standards he uses to assign skill levels to skiers. Ridicule won't help him. Visiting the Berkshires and letting him see how effective other ski coaching approaches can be might help him. He just might notice you and ask how you ski.
Video MA of SkiMangoJazz? Link please.
Video MA Vocalskier?
''Video MA of SkiMangoJazz? Link please.''
The link generates a video no longer available message.
I'm a PMTS skier and I don't like some of SMJ's attitude. But I do respect the hard work he's put in to get where he is. As he has explained several times, he's not a natural skier, he has to work at it, and he loves skiing. In short, he's the perfect candidate for a bit of pmts training except he's been turned off by the verbal battles and his acute sensitivity to blanket assertions about PSIA. Too bad really because if he had a thicker skin he could take his skiing up a couple of levels with a few days of pmts-like instruction.
I won't comment explicitly on the video except to say I watched it several times because he was a PSIA instructor who posted video and a self-assessment of his skiing level (1-9). The man took the video down, and I will respect his wishes for privacy.
-sandman
Is there any video that shows ESA works?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6gwlWIrA6Q
ESA 2007 lol!
http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1506&hilit=+scsa
I'm a PMTS skier and I don't like some of SMJ's attitude. But I do respect the hard work he's put in to get where he is. As he has explained several times, he's not a natural skier, he has to work at it, and he loves skiing. In short, he's the perfect candidate for a bit of pmts training except he's been turned off by the verbal battles and his acute sensitivity to blanket assertions about PSIA. Too bad really because if he had a thicker skin he could take his skiing up a couple of levels with a few days of pmts-like instruction.
You're a PMtS skier. I am so sorry for you. My condolences, I truly mean it. Thank goodnes SMJ is turned off abot PMtS. That kind of skiing would really take his skiing back a few notches. I mean..... to master the Phantom turn......... How degrading.
For long links use tinyurl.com to create a shorter link that will show up on the blog.
What's wrong with the phantom turn? WC racers use it.
Thank goodnes SMJ is turned off abot PMtS. That kind of skiing would really take his skiing back a few notches.
I like know what is bad PMTS.
What's wrong with the phantom turn? WC racers use it.
No they don't. Harold claims they do. Just like the rest of his PMtS theory.
Show me a quote from a WC racer, that says he/she uses a phantom PMtS turn in their skiing. And I will gladly refute my comment.
Watch some WC footage. They lift and tip the outside ski often.
There are many examples of WC racers lifting and tipping.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX-yd2eNNzc
Very easy to see here
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhgUYPxBQ1I
I asked for a quote not a link to a video that shows a racer lifting his ski. Nothing new here to see. Some skiers have been doing that their whole life. What I can't figure out is how you guys changed the "lifting of the inside ski" to a phantom turn. It isn't even a turn. It's a movement.
Again. I would like a link to an actual quote from a world class skier, that concurs with this so called 'fathom turn"
Yes, the phantom is a movement pattern used to release one turn and start another. WC skiers do it often.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=81IHEmAHy1Q
The phantom is used to
1) Release the turn
2) Transfer balance to the new stance ski
3) Engage the new edges
Nothing controversial there.
HH envy continues. While his teaching syllabus is imo unique in its structure and insights, and its easy approachability, Harald has also made clear that there are people outside his formal system who can be valuable to work with.
What I find amazing about a lot of the Epic crowd is the way they shun any of those chances for outside improvement. Ok, for social reasons rule PMTS out, though a surprising number of instructors get PMTS training and then keep mum about it. Let's say you're a 50 day a year instructor who in the back of your mind knows you're not getting better, really. You could go to any of a number of well-regarded summer or fall race camps, or get on the phone to get the input you want during the regular season. Google Buck Hill, see what comes up.
Given the posters on Epic, there should be 10-15 Mt. Hood/Whistler/Chile summer camp reports a year there. Bklyn and Max are the only two frequent posters who readily come to mind who have done them. I'm sure I'm missing several (Martin Bell and BB get passes on this one, though Martin is not a regular poster), but few enough do that it's remarkable given all the talk about getting better and cutting edge technique.
Or maybe the antagonistic response to posting about summer training causes other people there to keep it on the down-low?
No HH envy here. Just asking for a link to a WC racer, validating the Fathom turn.
What I find amazing about the PMtS crowd is the total slurping/azz kissing of HH and the need to constantly validate everything he spits out of his mouth.
Also, the costant bashing of Epic here. What did ya think? That everybody that was going to post here drinks the koolaid. If so, you were very misled. Just like all of the others that believe PMtS is a way of skiing. ( LMAOL )
By the way I googled Buck Hill, is this what you meant.
www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=2971
"By the way I googled Buck Hill, is this what you meant.
www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=2971"
Cost of Googling: about 5 seconds of time.
Showing how clueless you are: priceless.
"By the way I googled Buck Hill, is this what you meant.
www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=2971"
Cost of Googling: about 5 seconds of time.
Showing how clueless you are: priceless.
Great comeback!!!
Thats just Rich$$$$
As usual a typical PMtS reponse>
For the people who may not get it, Buck Hill has a race program, director, alums, and related camps that shall we say are very well known. To some. We're not talking quantum foam here.
......and this has what to do with asking for a link from a WC skier to validate that they use. The so-called "Fantom Turn" ????
Please stay on track with what the poster was asking.
Googled Buck Hill. Nice accomplishments for such a small area.
However, what does this site have to do with the conversation about validating a quote from a WC skier. To validate the PMtS Phantom Turn? I do not see anything about PMtS on that site. The only common thing on that site with PMtS. Is that the race director is Austrian, just like Harold is.
Is that the point that you were trying to make?
The videos prove that lifting and tipping is used on the WC. That's what the phantom move is all about. No quote needed when it can be seen so easily.
Still waiting for Phil or Cirque to explain why the trio was banned. What posting guidelines did they break?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=81IHEmAHy1Q
was already given up above for a link of lifting/tipping.
Austrian heritage had zero to do with the point, which is that there's fairly broad access to modern technique for those who want to get it. A lot decline to get that access.
You're the 2d person in this comment thread not to have heard of a very well-known race program who at the same time is really into what happens on the WC. You might want to withhold judgment while broadening your horizons, IF what you want is access to modern technique.
The videos prove that lifting and tipping is used on the WC. That's what the phantom move is all about. No quote needed when it can be seen so easily.
Not really my friend. When Harold is trying to patent the name of that movement. It becomes a subject open to crticism. You all say that WC skiers use the so-called Phantom turn, and all I asked was a simple quote from a WC skier that uses a Phantom Turn.
You're the 2d person in this comment thread not to have heard of a very well-known race program who at the same time is really into what happens on the WC. You might want to withhold judgment while broadening your horizons, IF what you want is access to modern technique.
You are so wrong my friend, and need to get out more often. Can you not tell when you have been played.
We all know that inside lifting and tipping exsists.\What I want proof of is a quote from a WC skier validating that he/she uses this so-called Phantom turn.
Quit avoiding the point with these un-necessary you tube links showing me the movemnet of liting and tipping of the inside ski.
Which is not a turn by the way. Only a movement/ a part of the turn.
Still waiting for Phil or Cirque to explain why the trio was banned,
It has been answered, it is Epic's policy NOT to discuss a members banning with anyone other than the people involved.
Phil
Still waiting for Phil or Cirque to explain why the trio was banned. What posting guidelines did they break?
Still waiting to hear why Phil and Ron got banned. What posting guidelines did they break?
It has been answered, it is Epic's policy NOT to discuss a members banning with anyone other than the people involved.
Especially when the real reason is that they said positive things about PMTS.
Especially when the real reason is that they said positive things about PMTS.
Like what..... that Harold invented the Phantom Turn?
Still waiting to hear why Phil and Ron got banned. What posting guidelines did they break?
Phil was trying to make Harold in argument. Ron was saying maybe PMTS supporter getting financial benefit somehow. The aganda to make trouble.
The PMTS forum belong to Harold. Make trouble and banned.
Someones show what in Bolter post is braking rules -
Another good post BTS, it would be great if you could drop the first four paragraphs. I don't need another parent.
When Harold is trying to patent the name of that movement. It becomes a subject open to crticism.
Harold indentified and named a movement combo used by expert skiers thst is difficult for the casual oberserver to see. That is why it is named the PHANTOM MOVE. He then developed a teaching system to teach this and other movements to recreational skiers. What is there to criticize.
Quit avoiding the point with these un-necessary you tube links showing me the movemnet of liting and tipping of the inside ski.
Which is not a turn by the way. Only a movement/ a part of the turn.
In the PMTS books the name is "PHANTOM MOVE". As mentioned earlier lifting and tipping will release, transfer, and engage. Used to end one turn and start the next.
It has been answered, it is Epic's policy NOT to discuss a members banning with anyone other than the people involved.
Phil
A reasonable policy,,, violated when was it was discussed in detail with stakeholders.
When Harold is trying to patent the name of that movement. It becomes a subject open to crticism.
Harold indentified and named a movement combo used by expert skiers thst is difficult for the casual oberserver to see. That is why it is named the PHANTOM MOVE. He then developed a teaching system to teach this and other movements to recreational skiers. What is there to criticize.
OK, so going back to the original question/assumption. Where can we get validation from a WC skier that they use this patented movement as has been proclaimed by posers in this blog as well as in discussion on PMtS.
In the PMTS books the name is "PHANTOM MOVE". As mentioned earlier lifting and tipping will release, transfer, and engage. Used to end one turn and start the next.
Nothing new here. Skiers have been using this movement for a long time.
I believe it is referred to as " Early inside edge engagement" or smoething along those lines.
>>>>A reasonable policy,,, violated when was it was discussed in detail with stakeholders.<<<
Just curious, how would you know, are you a Stakeholder on epic?
....Ott
OK, so going back to the original question/assumption. Where can we get validation from a WC skier that they use this patented movement as has been proclaimed by posers in this blog as well as in discussion on PMtS.
Seeing the movement being used in the video is the validation.
Ott, are you saying that statement is false?
Ott said: "Just curious, how would you know, are you a Stakeholder on epic?"
Ott, are you a stakeholder on Epic?
Even more HH envy and fixation. Downplaying the lifting on the WC is not without irony, since many on Epic have said that lifting the inside ski is a dangerous and inefficient move. So lifting on WC should be jarring for Epic folks to see. Just like flexing to release seems a novel concept there.
Harb has never claimed to have coached every WC'er or otherwise been solely responsible for WC technique. Though, several current and former WC coaches are big PMTS fans. Gollner for one. Given how plugged-in Epic posters seem to be to the race scene, some fun could be had with the name game. What he is trying to do is make the powerful basics of that technique accessible to everyone. And clearly that's threatening to a lot of people.
A lot of people don't want other people to improve their golf game or their skiing. At least not to a level better than their own. Anyone trying to either get better or help others tuely improve will have to take a lot of flak.
On the question of who is a skier.
50-something mother from Miami sking everything, subject to safety and ability, who I met after a gravity traverse last winter that she did not blow, on one of her two weeks skiing a year: skier.
JV who's taken some whippers and come back for more: skier.
Internet poster who relishes free gear given due to posting status but who frequently gives highly questionable advice, and changes recommended gear as the wind blows: ,...eh.
Amazing how recommended brands can change through the years.
No, I am not a stakeholder on Epic.
...Ott
OK, so going back to the original question/assumption. Where can we get validation from a WC skier that they use this patented movement as has been proclaimed by posers in this blog as well as in discussion on PMtS.
Seeing the movement being used in the video is the validation.
Not good enough bro. You posers claim that the WC racers are using your patented turn.
I want validation from a WC skier that that is what they are specifically using as their turn.
I could copy and paste any skiers movements, and claim them as my own way of teaching without any validity. (Like PMtS is doing)
Even more HH envy and fixation. Downplaying the lifting on the WC is not without irony, since many on Epic have said that lifting the inside ski is a dangerous and inefficient move. So lifting on WC should be jarring for Epic folks to see. Just like flexing to release seems a novel concept there.
No fixation here. Just trying to weed out the BS.
Harb has never claimed to have coached every WC'er or otherwise been solely responsible for WC technique. Though, several current and former WC coaches are big PMTS fans. Gollner for one. Given how plugged-in Epic posters seem to be to the race scene, some fun could be had with the name game. What he is trying to do is make the powerful basics of that technique accessible to everyone. And clearly that's threatening to a lot of people.
I disagree. Hehas caimed resposibility in the involvement of alot of WC skiers. ( Not saying that is a bad thing ) It's not so much of making his works accessible to others. By the way which alot of it has been reworded, to fit his agenda. I can deal with that. It seems to be his arrogant marketing approach to all of this. You honestly don't think that you are going to have adverse repercussions over this. It's not the threatening my friend. It's the slander and arrogance that spews from his hole.
Back on topic tho. We need to quit avoiding the topic and find some WC skier that can validate this so-called Phantom turn/move.
The real question,,,does PMTS work?
It not only works, it works straight away. Then it gets really interesting; self doubt goes out the window when you realise that it was just lack of knowledge holding you back. When all the answers are published and accessible, you realise that you can break through to high levels of movements that expert skiers use. It's like cheating, the moves are efficient; effortless. But it IS a complete system of teaching, a mix and match bags of tricks approach will just hold you back. You don't need any tricks anymore, the same moves work in all conditions. It a smart way to ski, crikey it's your loss if you can't see this.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=58AOloYB7t4
I don't have a question that PMtS works, but it is the people that are involved with it that turned me me off from it.
Different people learn different ways, for those who can learn from an overbearing self centered asshole this is the system for you.
It not only works, it works straight away. Then it gets really interesting; self doubt goes out the window when you realise that it was just lack of knowledge holding you back. When all the answers are published and accessible, you realise that you can break through to high levels of movements that expert skiers use. It's like cheating, the moves are efficient; effortless. But it IS a complete system of teaching, a mix and match bags of tricks approach will just hold you back. You don't need any tricks anymore, the same moves work in all conditions. It a smart way to ski, crikey it's your loss if you can't see this.
Really? I don't believe it. All I have ever heard is how you have all of these self taught guru's who have only read the books and done the movemnets on their own. Maybe a few have sent a video to HH and the minions to look at. Let's look at ratio's here. Based on how many actual PMtS followers there are. How many have attended a ski camp? I'm talking about new people. Not the regulars. If this so-called system works right away. Then why don't we see it at any of the areas? I guess I need some convincing. "cause it seems like the same old stuff we've been doin'. Just reworded different.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=58AOloYB7t4
Now that was funny!
The camps are amazing. New faces each time. PMTS is growing.
Not really my friend. When Harold is trying to patent the name of that movement. It becomes a subject open to crticism. (emphasis added)
Neither the constitution nor Congress has authorized the US Patent and Trademark Office to patent a "name."
Got any more BS for us?
Names are subject to trademark law, and if they're sufficiently complex and creative to copyright law as well.
Get your facts straight. About trademarks and about efficient skiing. An interesting feature of the PMTS skier population is that it has a very high concentration of engineers, scientists, and healing professionals (orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists, med school profs, etc.) They're mostly drawn to PMTS because it make sense to them in their expert professional opinions as students of motion and/or the human body; whereas most other ski instruction they've encountered left them dazed, baffled, and insecure. Traditional dogma like knee angulation and actively rotating weighted skis is obvious quatsch to them and ample grounds for rejecting a skiing approach.
<<<I don't have a question that PMtS works, but it is the people that are involved with it that turned me me off from it. >>>
Well, it would work even better if you'd spell it correctly -- all in the same case. Maybe it's a subliminal messages that you're suffering from PMS. Talk to your gynecologist; so many women just like you suffer in silence needlessly.
Let's see here. You'll share the roads with Democrats, Republicans, Communists, Libertarians, Anarchists, and PMTS fans. You'll attend a university with them and even send your offspring to a university with them. You share airports, water supplies, flu vaccine supplies, and a national defense with them. It may rankle you, but you realize that you personally gain benefit from using a resource that those "others" use. How is skiing any different. You affirmed that PMTS works; why not try it? You don't have to drink Kool-Aid, ski on Head skis, or like Harald to benefit from PMTS.
All this trademark, patent stuff is just a bunch of red herring BS.
Harb never claimed to have invented the Phantom move. What he did do is correctly look at and MA WC skiing. Identify successful movement patterns that these skiers use that could be learned by the public and put it all in a comprehensive system that is directed at the public. His entire system is unique. So let's cut the bull and stop spreading lies and distortions over and over.
VS1
Harold don't let you steer a ski. How u ski steaps shutes trees and bumps.
Where is Max 501? He seems to be MIA. Not here, not on PMTS.. where is he?
"Harold don't let you steer a ski. How u ski steaps shutes trees and bumps." [sic]
If you want extreme skiing that's PMTS-compatible you can read
Ski the Whole Mountain: How to Ski Any Condition at Any Time (Paperback)
by Eric Deslauriers (Author), Rob Deslauriers (Author), Hank Devre (Photographer)
Or read Harald's books and take an All Mountain camp or private lesson from Harb Ski Systems.
Harald's hand-trained coaches slay the mountain and will be happy to help you make your best effort at the same. If you prefer to avoid Harald, try the Deslauriers brothers All Mountain Ski Pros outfit.
Any Mouse
But what does your question have to do with EpicSki management or the banning of the trio? IIRC the name of this blog is "Epic Ski Sucks" and you have neither supported nor refuted this thesis.
All this trademark, patent stuff is just a bunch of red herring BS.
Harb never claimed to have invented the Phantom move. What he did do is correctly look at and MA WC skiing. Identify successful movement patterns that these skiers use that could be learned by the public and put it all in a comprehensive system that is directed at the public. His entire system is unique. So let's cut the bull and stop spreading lies and distortions over and over.
VS1
You are so misinformed VS1. You need to go back and reread all of his posts. He does take great credit for that move/turn. Which is a clear indication of his wanting to patent that movement/turn.
Again quit avoiding the original poster, and lets here some validation from a WC skier in regards to this Fantom turn.
Harold don't let you steer a ski. How u ski steaps shutes trees and bumps.
WTF!
Do you speak frickin engrish?
Or read Harald's books and take an All Mountain camp or private lesson from Harb Ski Systems.
Harald's hand-trained coaches slay the mountain and will be happy to help you make your best effort at the same
Do you really believe that crap you just posted.
You are so misinformed VS1. You need to go back and reread all of his posts. He does take great credit for that move/turn.
He deserves credit for bringing such a powerful movement to recreational ski instruction.
He deserves credit for bringing such a powerful movement to recreational ski instruction.
Herein lies the crux of the problem. He did not invent the movement. It already exists and has been around a long time.
Did not say he invented it. He did bring it to the recreational skier. Confirmed by Lito, Clendenin, and others.
Did not say he invented it. He did bring it to the recreational skier. Confirmed by Lito, Clendenin, and others.
Other posts would disagree with your statement. I would like to see a link to Lito & Clendenin affirming this. By the way who are the others?
Still waiting in a confirmation from a WC skier to confirm the Fantom turn.
There's a very easy to find documented discussion between Lito and HArb on ski instruction. Why dont you get off your lazy ass and look for it instead of continuing to spout off in an uninformed manner and crying to be spoon fed. This isn't Epic. If you want your bottle reheated head over there.
coldsmoke
Harald invented PMTS. He identified and named the phantom move. He put a spot light on the important role of the inside foot.
No claims that he invented the movements.
The video clips have proved the existance of the lift and tip movement at the WC level. Nuff said on that.
Lito says -
Today’s carved turn is an exercise in simplicity and restraint — a case of maximum result from minimum skier movement—and it works like this. With no unweighting, with no twisting or steering action of your feet, you simply shift your weight to your top ski — the soon-to-be outside ski of the coming turn. And then, having shifted onto this new ski, your body moves laterally across the skis, toward the center of the coming turn. As it does so, that weighted ski rolls off its old (outside) edge, onto its new (inside) edge, and begins to bend to create the arc of this new turn. What I’m describing is a slow, patient, progressive start to the turn. Your crucial outside ski slices forward into the turn, instead of pivoting rapidly down the hill. In fact, the slower and more progressive the start of this arc, the more carved it’s likely to be.
Several important factors make this a great turn. Instead of unweighting our skis to turn them, we are pre-weighting the new outside ski, by standing on it 100%. This makes it that much harder to twist, or jerk, or pivot that ski into a skid. And note the timing: an early weight shift comes first, then the crossover or commitment of the body, which in turn results in the weighted outside ski rolling over progressively to its new edge.
And finally, let’s ask what the other, light foot is doing all this time? It’s simple. With the light (inside) foot, the skier is “taking care of the light ski,” that is to say, keeping the light foot comfortably close to the weighted foot, pulling the light heel inward while tipping that foot over toward its little-toe side. In essence, performing a ‘shadow’ or ‘light’ edging movement with that light inside ski—tilting it into the turn, without ever putting any weight on it. This gentle tipping of the light ski in a modern turn is what my friend, coach Harald Harb, calls the phantom move. It’s so subtle it’s almost invisible. But Harold’s insight into this inside foot and leg action is fascinating. He has pointed out that the more you “edge” your light foot and ski (never really weighting it) the stronger the edging of outside, carving ski will be. This is a fabulously easy way to control the amount of edge you use in a carved turn. Harold’s ‘phantom move,’ the complementary action of the the light inside foot and leg is what I call “taking care of the light ski.”
Lito again -
http://tinyurl.com/5m5l48
Eric and Rob Deslauriers -
"Thanks to Harald Harb. Harald is a true maverick thinker and mover in a ski instruction industry that has been coasting along for many years. Harald helped us to focus on the movement of the inside foot. It was cool how everything we had been teaching for years in off-piste skiing just clicked with what Harald was doing."
John Clendenin -
"Harald Harb: whose dedication to ski instruction and theories
on the inside ski are still as under-rated as his skiing.
Harald's hand-trained coaches slay the mountain and will be happy to help you make your best effort at the same
Do you really believe that crap you just posted.
.....................
Sorry, I believe my post was completely sanitary -- no compostable material here.
Assuming a failed attempt at humor on your part, here's my reply.
Wouldn't waste my time typing if I didn't. Seeing is believing. Those folks can ski; yes, Phil, they can ski ;-)
Any Mouse
Has everyone put child access controls on their web browsers? There's a lot of 5-year-old potty mouth typing going on around here.
Lito -
"Harald Harb's important book, Anyone Can be An Expert Skier, has also gone through an evolution and has now become a two volume set. Well done Harald! Harald's books and new video are all available from amazon.com. Harald Harb is one of the most innovative ski coaches I have ever met and his books and videos belong in every serious skier's library. In addition, his books contain some of the best ski-technique sequence photos ever shot."
Lito -
""As a skier and ski teacher, I have learned a lot from Harald Harb. His insights into the multiple makeup of expert skiing - equipment, biomechanics, and functional primary movements - are vital, accurate, and above all immediately useful. This book could spark a long overdue revolution in American ski instruction."-Lito Tejada-Flores, author of Breakthrough on Skis"
Wouldn't it be nice if these references could be posted on EPIC?
Eric Deslaurier from a 2001 post on Epic-
"Anyway, I met HH a about four or five years ago through Skiing Magazine. We had powwow and I ended up doing some work with HH in his early days of splitting from PSIA. I had been coaching advanced ski clinics for awhile working with skiers on off-piste skiing. My brother and I (and three partners) had been doing our thing, since 1991) basically outside the normall bubble of ski instruction and had our own way of thinking about things(teaching models). When my brother and I got to discussing skiing with HH it was truly uncanny how a couple key elements of PMTS thinking fit into, like, EVRYTHING we had ben doing to date; the actual techniques of skiing AND teaching. The two key concepts were: relax to release and lead the edge change with that same newly unweighted foot. The evolution in my personal skiing and in our teaching models was, to me, a truly amazing thing.
PMTS works. Some of the best in the industry say so. Even an ESA coach says so. Nuff said.
Sorry, I believe my post was completely sanitary -- no compostable material here.
Assuming a failed attempt at humor on your part, here's my reply.
Wouldn't waste my time typing if I didn't. Seeing is believing. Those folks can ski; yes, Phil, they can ski ;-)
Any Mouse
Has everyone put child access controls on their web browsers? There's a lot of 5-year-old potty mouth typing going on around here.
Brilliant, I would have expected nothing less of your comments in a reply like that. I am sure that you meant to be more mature in your response. True HH fashion.
I am still waiting for a reply from a WC skier verifying that he/she uses the patented Phantom turn.
Hi there! looks like a nice group to discuss skiing stuff.
I am a WC skier and I verify that I use a patented Phantom turn. I'm not very good though, I thought that that was all I needed, but I've just been told that there is a really good system to improve that utilises a "phantom move" and many other movements like the best in my sport use. I think I will have to look more closely at this. Apparently this dude called Harald Harb has documented an entire system. I can't wait to get his books and videos.
Hi there! looks like a nice group to discuss skiing stuff.
I am a WC skier and I verify that I use a patented Phantom turn. I'm not very good though, I thought that that was all I needed, but I've just been told that there is a really good system to improve that utilises a "phantom move" and many other movements like the best in my sport use. I think I will have to look more closely at this. Apparently this dude called Harald Harb has documented an entire system. I can't wait to get his books and videos.
I would like to look up your WC history, is your for or last name "sockpuppet"? Such a feable attempt. I would say to go right to HH's site, but I am sure you are already there.
The validation request is a red herring.
The movement pattern of lift and tip is clear to see in the race video.
Phantom move is a name for the movement pattern. Phantom turn is a name for linked turns using that movement pattern.
Well the Lito and Deslauriers posts really end a lot of the BS. OF course you PSIA/Epic guys can trash them now to if you want.
coldsmoke
I'm not much on appeal to authority, but if I have a choice between what the brothers Deslauriers know and what Nolo, BB, SSH, and Weems think they know, the choice is clear.
To borrow phrasing from Volklskier1, I do not aspire to ski like the latter instructors. To see why, look no further than the videos of them posted on youtube under the epicski userid (or their demos and/or MA requests on epic)
Hi there! looks like a nice group to discuss skiing stuff.
I am a WC skier and I verify that I use a patented Phantom turn. I'm not very good though, I thought that that was all I needed, but I've just been told that there is a really good system to improve that utilises a "phantom move" and many other movements like the best in my sport use. I think I will have to look more closely at this. Apparently this dude called Harald Harb has documented an entire system. I can't wait to get his books and videos.
Thats just great! Yousound like you are already an excellent candidate for PMtS. So, head on over there an getcha some ah that KOOLAID .
I am sure that you will get your fill of books and such. Seeing that you are a WC skier. Let's see some video of ya doin the nasty. (PMtS Fantom Turn)
The validation request is a red herring.
The movement pattern of lift and tip is clear to see in the race video.
Phantom move is a name for the movement pattern. Phantom turn is a name for linked turns using that movement pattern.
BS bro. We understand the movement clearly. What you failed to understand, is that your mentor HH claims that WC skiers usethis patented move/turn. All I am asking is validation from a WC skier confirming that he/she uses HH's patented Phantom move/turn.
Well the Lito and Deslauriers posts really end a lot of the BS. OF course you PSIA/Epic guys can trash them now to if you want.
coldsmoke
Not so my friend. You say whatever you want. The only person that has used the phrase between the two that you have mentioned is Lito.
Not alot to say for him tho.
Lets see it. Come on a WC skier that can validate this. You have had two days to google something and find out.
I'm not much on appeal to authority, but if I have a choice between what the brothers Deslauriers know and what Nolo, BB, SSH, and Weems think they know, the choice is clear.
To borrow phrasing from Volklskier1, I do not aspire to ski like the latter instructors. To see why, look no further than the videos of them posted on youtube under the epicski userid (or their demos and/or MA requests on epic)
Funny you should say that seeing tat the Deslauriers post on epic but, not PMtS. Go figure.
You're right follow VS1 'cause he can't ski either. ( We still want to see a video of him)
HH claims that WC skiers usethis patented move/turn>
Why the word patented used to describe the phantom?
Posted by Eski in 2001 -
Here a piece of an article I wrote a couple years back which basically describes the "phantom move":
"As you finish the turn and come across the falline making a medium radius turn, trigger the release of the turn and simultaneously transfer weight to the uphill, little toe edge by relaxing (or shortening) the outside dominant leg. You are slowly releasing the turn while finishing the turn shape. Now fully across the falline and ready for the new turn you are standing more
on two feet with legs still bent (due to weight transfer via "dominant"
leg shortening as opposed to extending the uphill leg). Now flatten the skis to the snow and as you continue to lighten that new inside foot to transfer your balance and weight to the new "dominant" turning/stance leg.
As this natural weight transfer occurs, continue to tip the newly un-weighted (inside) foot to its little toe edge. This simple move creates the engagement of the dominant leg's inside (big toe) edge, which is, in effect, the new carve turn. You are now in the falline of the new turn completing the movement sequence and "linking fallines."
The desrbes basically describes the phantom movement sequence. Hoepfully this addresses the initial question on this discussion thread.
Here a piece of an article I wrote a couple years back which basically describes the "phantom move":
"As you finish the turn and come across the falline making a medium radius turn, trigger the release of the turn and simultaneously transfer weight to the uphill, little toe edge by relaxing (or shortening) the outside dominant leg. You are slowly releasing the turn while finishing the turn shape. Now fully across the falline and ready for the new turn you are standing more
on two feet with legs still bent (due to weight transfer via "dominant"
leg shortening as opposed to extending the uphill leg). Now flatten the skis to the snow and as you continue to lighten that new inside foot to transfer your balance and weight to the new "dominant" turning/stance leg.
As this natural weight transfer occurs, continue to tip the newly un-weighted (inside) foot to its little toe edge. This simple move creates the engagement of the dominant leg's inside (big toe) edge, which is, in effect, the new carve turn. You are now in the falline of the new turn completing the movement sequence and "linking fallines."
The desrbes basically describes the phantom movement sequence. Hoepfully this addresses the initial question on this discussion thread.
Two seperate quotes happenin here HH. The italicized quotes are one in te same. The bold qoute is all alone. I do agree with the explanation of the bold qoute. But, no where in that quote is it mentioned that it is a Phantom turn. It is metioned as a carved turn.
Nice try though>. ;-)
The text from Eski is from a single post on Epic with no edits. That is how he wrote it. He describes the bold text as a phantom move.
Thats funny because he does not mention the "Phantom turn" or use that term in his carved turn on the grooms. On his website.
http://www.allmountainskipros.com/ski-tips-carving
Carves on the Groomed
(excerpted from Chapter 1 of "Ski the Whole Mountain")
In figures 1-2, Eric rips up a groomed trail with both skis tipped on edge and the inside ski (left) lightly brushing the snow. At this point in the turn, you can have any combination of weighting between you feet and skis.
In figures 2-3, he releases the turn and in doing so transfers weight more weight to the left ski (future outside ski) by relaxing and shortening his right leg.
By figure 4 he has completed the weight transfer and initiated the new turn by tipping the unweighted inside (right) foot to the inside of the turn onto the little toe edge. There is very little weight on either ski as he flows in figure 5, linking the turns with foot-work focus.
By Figure 5, the forces are building on the outside (left) ski, bending it into the arc of the new turn. The inside (right) foot and ski are poised and ready to support weight as needed to carve the turn on both skis and then to be there for the next release and transition.
Essentials: Notice how Eric never comes up, or rises, very much between the turns in figures 3-4-5. He is solid in every phase through the sequence. He can take these exact movements into the un-groomed, all-mountain realm with ease and confidence because these same moves will work just as well in adverse conditions.
Another red herring. It be proven that he use the term "Phantom Turn" on Epic.
In the "Additional Reading" section of Ski the Whole Mountain the DesLauries recommend Harald's book, Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier.
What are y'all carrying on about? Y'all agree on the lift and tip thingy. Where's the beef?
I stand corrected, and for that I apologize. But, further reading. I ran across this.
I've just spent a bit of time reading all the above discussion. Very good stuff, for sure. You guys have had a big day. I was out cleacning my shed as we've had a change in the weather! Winter is coming maybe as much as a foot of snow by Tuesday! I'm ready.
Anyway, I met HH a about four or five years ago through Skiing Magazine. We had powwow and I ended up doing some work with HH in his early days of splitting from PSIA. I had been coaching advanced ski clinics for awhile working with skiers on off-piste skiing. My brother and I (and three partners) had been doing our thing, since 1991) basically outside the normall bubble of ski instruction and had our own way of thinking about things(teaching models). When my brother and I got to discussing skiing with HH it was truly uncanny how a couple key elements of PMTS thinking fit into, like, EVRYTHING we had ben doing to date; the actual techniques of skiing AND teaching. The two key concepts were: relax to release and lead the edge change with that same newly unweighted foot. The evolution in my personal skiing and in our teaching models was, to me, a truly amazing thing.
Up to that point (which was just as shaped skis were coming out), I was still talking a lot about extension based release patterns (although we always recognized a relaxation phase in transition which was key to the similarity). The exceptions were deep powder and soft snow, but even here there was still extension in the vernacular (there still IS to a very limited extent). What was missing, and I sense the same missing link in ATS, is the TRIGGER to get the CM smoothly down into the next turn.
Well...the missing link was in the relaxation move. The key here is this: (Bob...you mentioned the forces in the turn) the turning forces of the turn come from us standing on our skis through the body/belly of each turn, it is not some random gravitational influence which pushes against us. It is us resisting the G's until we release these G's. By relaxing or giving in to these forces it starts the edge change AND at the same time pulls the CM into the next turn. Without having to push against the forces which is a lot more effort.
Then the smooth continuation is to simply lead the edge change with the same foot coming in nice and light as the new inside ski. This is the LINK which came up a couple days ago.
The only other really important point (for this note) is that the upper body(CM) always faces in your direction of travel. This is especially important when finishing a turn to have it already facing the middle of the next turn. This upper/lower body seperation provides all the rotation force needed to facilitate the skis natural tendency to seek the falline through the neutral phase of transition. So that as the skis change edges and, simultaneously, the CM flows into the new turn and skis are passing through nuetral and flat on or above the snow surface, the skis draw into the falline and then you are in the turn and G's build again. Just this little bit of rotary loading combined with the shape of modern skis and the cutting of the skis through the snow, makes the turn happens SO much more easily then with old skis. In addittion, in other words, you do not need to steer the skis for linked, parrallel skiing.
This is basically the basis for PMTS and for my own teaching and for the training models that I do with my own small band of prefessional merry men and women. Further, the models that HH outlines in his book are just that: models. Yes, they are very good progressions which works well in very ordered steps for skill development. Good. But, like people have said above, good coaching and getting effective results are only in part due to sound MODELS. It is still up to the Pros to fine tune a lesson plan for each individual student and to vary it according to circumstance and learning and individual learning patterns.
BUT I still believe that the evolution in ski design has evolved skiing technique and, additionally, that it is up to all of us to evolve ski teaching too. I would suggest that we, as Ski Pros, owe it to our clients and the ski industry which we all work in to put petty differences aside and take a good, honest look at all the various "methods", make some judgement calls as to what really works and evolve Professional Ski Instruction in America. This may mean that YOU actually go out and teach a new progression and see what happens. Talking about it only goes so far. Reality goes farther.
Ok...that's the end of my whatever. Hope everybody has a good week coming up and I look forward to more lively discussion. Pray for snow and world peace. See you.
-E
P.S. Sorry about any typos or misspellings. I'm not really proff-reading this too much. Off the top of the head for sure. :
ologize. I had to go back to 2001 to find Eskis post. And it was there.
But, this was also there too.
More text confirming that Eski agrees with HH.
So, Eski made those comments back in 2001. That still doesn't validate that WC skiers use this so-called Fantom turn in there skiing.
Still waiting.
tic-toc-tic-toc
All very interesting, but why was the trio banned?
If you won't answer that, how about this: how would you revise the posting guidelines and site t&c's to help future Bolters avoid getting banned for a post that starts by complimenting another member's post? It sure seemed harmless, but in hindsight it must not have been. Tell us broadly how to avoid a similar fate ourselves.
Any Mouse
Is there anyone that does not see a lift and tip movement in the race video?
Eski said -
The cool thing about this "phantom move" (to quote a popular source), to link turns, is that it really works for varying snow conditions as well. With matching edge angles through your turns, it is very easy to create varying degrees of the two-ski platform. Very powerful and smooth for ripping all kinds of fun lines in different snow conditions and terrain demands.
Can anyone confirm the post that Epic management involved the stakeholders with the trios banning?
Yes, what did the trio do to get banned?
tic toc tic toc
This Fil guy is going to explode soon, hope his heart is ok.
All very interesting, but why was the trio banned?
If you won't answer that, how about this: how would you revise the posting guidelines and site t&c's to help future Bolters avoid getting banned for a post that starts by complimenting another member's post? It sure seemed harmless, but in hindsight it must not have been. Tell us broadly how to avoid a similar fate ourselves.
Any Mouse
OK HH if you tell us why Phil and Ron were banned. And what we need to do to keep further posters from being banned.
Eski said:
When my brother and I got to discussing skiing with HH it was truly uncanny how a couple key elements of PMTS thinking fit into, like, EVRYTHING we had ben doing to date; the actual techniques of skiing AND teaching.
and:
. Further, the models that HH outlines in his book are just that: models. Yes, they are very good progressions which works well in very ordered steps for skill development. Good. But, like people have said above, good coaching and getting effective results are only in part due to sound MODELS.
Seems to me like HH might have copied hi teaching system from someone.
Those PMtSers are going to explode soon. Hope there hearts are OK.
He discussed technique with HH and says -
The two key concepts were: relax to release and lead the edge change with that same newly unweighted foot. The evolution in my personal skiing and in our teaching models was, to me, a truly amazing thing.
and
Up to that point (which was just as shaped skis were coming out), I was still talking a lot about extension based release patterns (although we always recognized a relaxation phase in transition which was key to the similarity). The exceptions were deep powder and soft snow, but even here there was still extension in the vernacular (there still IS to a very limited extent). What was missing, and I sense the same missing link in ATS, is the TRIGGER to get the CM smoothly down into the next turn.
Well...the missing link was in the relaxation move.
Clear that HH contributed, no?
Phil and Ron banning answered already.
Looking forward to the 2008 ESA video to see BB, Weems, etc. demonstrate 1950's wood ski, leather boot technique.
>>>Looking forward to the 2008 ESA video to see BB, Weems, etc. demonstrate 1950's wood ski, leather boot technique.<<<
Forgive me, but don't you know that saying things like the above just shows your own stupidity and cluelessness about skiing?
....Ott, who used to ski on wood skis and leather boots.
....and while I'm at it, I can't tell one anonymous from another, what you are for or against, once you say that and right after you say something against, you guys should take a bib number and sign yourself as #1,#2, etc. so I can tell the players apart.
Or better yet, use your name, or if that perchance may embarrass you at least use your handle, as it is it is impossible to tell the lefties from the righties.
....Ott
Epic- Pages arguing what makes an intermediate. IRONY.
PMtS- Pages figuring out who Ken Fisher really is. Priceless!
Clear that HH contributed, no?
Clear HH copied parts from Eski,and his Bro and at the same time he is trying to re-invent the wheel.
Eski gives credit to HH in his book and on Epic.
"Is there anyone that does not see a lift and tip movement in the race video?"
Of course I see it. Does not mean that Harold invented it!!!!!!
E"ski gives credit to HH in his book and on Epic."
So ffffing what????? We be doin this for years. Nuttin new!!!!!
Is the lift and tip movment that Mr. Harb teaches described in any PSIA document or ski instruction book that predates Mr. Harb's work?
Again, all very intersting, but why was the trio banned? What will Epic Ski management do to suck less?
Why do you ask us why those three were banned, we don't know but as them they know because Epic warns them privately often of infractions of the policies and finally puts them on time out or banns them. Each of those guys know exactly why so don't ask us.
....Ott
Bolter and Max501 banned for their last posts. Can you tell us what in those posts was a problem.
Did not think so.
I don't think it had anything to do with their last posts but rather with posts over a long period of time with many policy infractions.
I have no inside information but having read their stuff over time there was a pattern of attacking persons rather than their views, much like here. Max may have been banned for other reasons, I always liked his contribution, incessant as they were.
Here posters hide in the bushes under the anonymous label and take pot shots at people like Bob Barnes, Joan/nolo, Weems,etc...you know who they are but your shots come out of the anonymous dark.
That is the cowardly and unfair way to aggrandize yourself, luckily nobody knows who you are...
....Ott
Max wrote on PMTS site it was last post got him banned.
Again, all very intersting, but why was the trio banned? What will Epic Ski management do to suck less?
Again. Why was Phil and Ron banned?
What will PMtS management do to suck MORE!
Bolter and Max501 banned for their last posts. Can you tell us what in those posts was a problem.
Did not think so
Are you friggin retarded? Do you know how to read? Apparently not. According to the poster's, they were warned more than once concerning their actions. So, that last post they may. Probably led up to the last straw.
On the other hand Phil and Ron were never warned. Nor were they ever put in time out. They were just shut down right away. No thanks to your cowardly leader.
Max wrote on PMTS site it was last post got him banned.
Harold banned Max! Now thats funny.
No wonder his system is so screwed up. It's a good thing PSIA got rid of him.
Here is the post that got Bolter banned. Anyone see bad behavior that breaks Epic rules?
Bolter said -
Another good post BTS, it would be great if you could drop the first four paragraphs. I don't need another parent.
Here is the post that got Bolter banned. Anyone see bad behavior that breaks Epic rules?
Bolter said -
Another good post BTS, it would be great if you could drop the first four paragraphs. I don't need another parent.
Are you retarded too? It was a culmination of idiotic posts from that jackazz that got him he boot.
Anyhow, why were Phil and Ron banned from PMtS?
Phil's obnoxious and immature attitude was obviously the reason he was given a specific procedure to perform to continue posting, but who is Ron? I don't remember that one. Recent history?
I don't see what was wrong with Phil's posts. All he did was ask Harold a question. Harold could not give him a straight answer. So, he banned him.
Bolter and VS1 were banned because of their arrogant and assinine posts. Max because of his twisty wordy changey format to always tie a discussion about skiing into a PMtS debaucle. Warned many times about this. They pulled the plug. All thre of them had numerous warnings, and still tested the waters.
As for Phil, I don't see that he was ever warned or even given a timout. Just banned right away.
So, who's site has the higher tolerance level, and acts more civil.
I think you PMS'ers know the answer.
So, get a new life and stop with this fixation about Epic.
Laterz
Irony,,,,Epic mod creates flame bait thread and bans people for posts that haven't broken any rules.
Nice job.
banned for other reasons I think
guessing,,,bolter because is a psia full cert that disses psia and supports pmts. max501 because he linked back to bad stuff about epic on pmts site.
guessing,,,,,,Phil, because he backed Harold into a corner, and Harold couldn't find anything of relevance to copy from an accredited sking source. To rebuff what Phil was asking.
Irony,,,,Epic mod creates flame bait thread and bans people for posts that haven't broken any rules.
Nice job.
Irony,,,,PMtS creates flame bait thread and bans people for posts that haven't broken any rules.
Nice job.
Mr Harb spends his free time supporting his books and camps. He does not have time to deal with people that are not interested in learning about PMTS. Phil and Ron broke that rule.
Epic is open and for everyone to discuss skiing.
Mr Harb spends his free time supporting his books and camps. He does not have time to deal with people that are not interested in learning about PMTS. Phil and Ron broke that rule.
Epic is open and for everyone to discuss skiing.
....and Epic has rulez too. Come on Bro, that was the lamest post in this whole blog. No wonder you PMtS zealots don't get out that often.
Also, what makes Harb so exclusive he's not the only one pushing books and camps. What HH's forum not open for skiing discussion? Oh yeah, thats right its all about the kittens.
Epic do has published rulez. None where broken by Bolter and Max.
Nolo and Cirque can kick other kids out of their sandbox of political correctness; it's theirs and they can share however they want.
The PC rules (no good, no bad, no better, no worse in skiing; all is relative to intent; no video of "pros") nurture charlatans and wannabes in the instruction and technique forums. But this is the company they choose to keep. When better appeared (Bolter, Max501, Volklskier1) they were shown to the door. Their sin? There is to be no "better" in Epicland.
I am a former reader of Epic posts by the trio. I searched out their comments because I learned more from them than any others on Epic.
BTW, if Epic over the past few years is still as great as it once was, where's AC? PhysicsMan? Other meaningful posters? Are they still welcome in the sandbox?
PhysicsMan posts were great.
Heluvaskier went away to.
Seems like there is an opportunity to start a forum where the debate can resume.
A most excellent idea.
Having the open forum lacking heavy handed modding at Epic and PMTS would be cool.
Nolo and Cirque can kick other kids out of their sandbox of political correctness; it's theirs and they can share however they want.
The PC rules (no good, no bad, no better, no worse in skiing; all is relative to intent; no video of "pros") nurture charlatans and wannabes in the instruction and technique forums. But this is the company they choose to keep. When better appeared (Bolter, Max501, Volklskier1) they were shown to the door. Their sin? There is to be no "better" in Epicland.
I am a former reader of Epic posts by the trio. I searched out their comments because I learned more from them than any others on Epic.
Glad you are a former reader. How many posts have the trio been hittin' up on PMtS? Hardly any......and the shower everybody with the rave about PMtS. But they can't even friggin keep a discussion on that forum. Hmmm whys that?
BTW, if Epic over the past few years is still as great as it once was, where's AC? PhysicsMan? Other meaningful posters? Are they still welcome in the sandbox?
According to the stats. The numbers all around are up. By meaningful, you must mean the ones who had nothing to interject. But PMtS crap, and they have a site for that. Go there and I am sure you will find what you are looking for.
Seems like there is an opportunity to start a forum where the debate can resume.
Let's start on Harold site first.
According to the stats. The numbers all around are up. By meaningful, you must mean the ones who had nothing to interject. But PMtS crap, and they have a site for that. Go there and I am sure you will find what you are looking for.
Begging your pardon, but I don't think PhysicsMan has studied PMTS. Nor are most other now silent, but classic Epic contributors PMTS students. The EpicSki malaise goes far beyond PMTS/PSIA squabbles.
How can we swap Rick and SSH out for a couple of these classic contributors? That would be a great first step towards resurrecting Epic.
Food for thought about your stats: quantity doesn't lead to quality. Do you want the best forum with the best skiing info and skier interaction or simply the biggest?
Here's a stat suggesting Epic is not as global or vibrant a community as you would like: there've been precious few Chile / New Zealand / Australia trip reports and commentaries. Not global because the Southern Hemisphere ignores you. Not vibrant because for a ski community that large to have almost no members trek down under for a quick ski fix is puzzling.
As an aside, I try to spell Epic and EpicSki correctly in all my comments here; why do you insist on deliberately misspelling PMTS? It doesn't further your cause and it doesn't keep Yahoo or Google from spotting the PMTS keyword on this page either.
The numbers at Epic are up???????? I do not see that.
Rick was one of the classic contributors at Epic
"Not vibrant because for a ski community that large to have almost no members trek down under for a quick ski fix is puzzling."
Yeah, for sure. Some of the ESA coaches actually work summers there, but don't post. But the online community doesn't seem to make it to NZ any more than they go to Mt. Hood or Whistler camps or S.A. in summer. In terms of what makes a skier, one thing skiers do is ski. Maybe if they required posters go to at least three nationally recognized race camps as either coach or camper before mentioning the WC in a thread?
According to the stats. The numbers all around are up. By meaningful, you must mean the ones who had nothing to interject. But PMtS crap, and they have a site for that. Go there and I am sure you will find what you are looking for.
Begging your pardon, but I don't think PhysicsMan has studied PMTS. Nor are most other now silent, but classic Epic contributors PMTS students. The EpicSki malaise goes far beyond PMTS/PSIA squabbles.
You are right, not all have been about PMTS. But ,they seem to get the most warnings. ( Meaning Epic has been more lenient towards them) the others have been shut down. Be it because of vulgarity, e-thugging, etc.
How can we swap Rick and SSH out for a couple of these classic contributors? That would be a great first step towards resurrecting Epic.
You'll have to ask them that. I think they are doin fine. On the other hand how can we swap out Harb and the other minions? In a step to resurrecting PMtS.
Food for thought about your stats: quantity doesn't lead to quality. Do you want the best forum with the best skiing info and skier interaction or simply the biggest?
Sometimes bigger, is better. It may be a hard one to chew for ya.
Seems to be better than a forum with hardly no activity.
Here's a stat suggesting Epic is not as global or vibrant a community as you would like: there've been precious few Chile / New Zealand / Australia trip reports and commentaries. Not global because the Southern Hemisphere ignores you. Not vibrant because for a ski community that large to have almost no members trek down under for a quick ski fix is puzzling.
WTF is your point here?
......and all members of PMtS are WC trekking skiers all over the globe. Give me a break.
As an aside, I try to spell Epic and EpicSki correctly in all my comments here; why do you insist on deliberately misspelling PMTS? It doesn't further your cause and it doesn't keep Yahoo or Google from spotting the PMTS keyword on this page either.
It's a new marketing approach.
Breaks Epic rules?
>>>>Bud say -
More evidence that you are a bit clueless on this subject.<<<<
If VS1 or Bolter type that be banned.
"......and all members of PMtS are WC trekking skiers all over the globe. Give me a break."
You don't need to be on the WC to travel. A number of PMTS students do in fact travel from NZ/AUS etc. to camps, and vice versa. But they're not that special in that regard, if you look at the community of dedicated skiers overall. VS1 surfs. He may well have been to G-land or similar far-off spots without ever having been near a pro level of surfing. (No offense to his surfing.) Travel is a natural thing to do. I can go to Government Camp most weeks during the summer and find people roughly my age who live near me. The way of the real world.
>>>I can go to Government Camp most weeks during the summer and find people roughly my age who live near me. The way of the real world.<<<
Max, is that you?
....Ott
Not Max.
"Epic warns them privately often of infractions of the policies and finally puts them on time out or banns them. Each of those guys know exactly why so don't ask us."
Actually, they have not had as good of manners as you think.
Max found out about being banned second hand. They never informed him.
I guess it is what Harald says about PSIA that really makes Epic squirm. His opinions of PSIA must be hitting some nerve of truth, even to PSIA and Epic skiers and instructors. You would have thought Epic would have given up on HH’s disgust with their skiing, teaching and understanding, if he had no merit.
It is futile to discuss anything seriously about skiing with a few lackeys from Epic. They hold no credibility (with anyone); they can’t even put up posts of their skiing. I watched Epic skiing online, the Epic video files; the skiing is sub par and really insulting.
To argue that HH has no support or credibility for PMTS with his counterparts in coaching; other credible coaches; is just an example of Epic minions not wanting to face facts. Just look at the credit’s on Harald’s book covers. Comments from highly successful world cup coaches and ski giants. Look at whom Harald has coached and skied with, only the best skiers from every era of skiing.
To argue that WC skiers don’t use the Phantom Move is just plain ignorant. It’s clear that these people are looking at racing through PSIA glasses. They can’t see what’s in front of their faces.
Epic posters here can’t see good skiing from bad skiing. And they can’t see a carved turn from a skidded PSIA “called” carve turn.
Who is void of credibility? Epic poster who have never achieved anything in skiing (not even a level 2 PSIA pin) and whose only claim of a background, is gibberish on Epic or Harald? Harald has accomplished almost everything you can accomplish in skiing. There is no reason for this argument, if you look at the realities at hand.
Only the threatened, envious, ignorant and discedited would argue against PMTS’s success, effectiveness and following.
Epic, a sorry place for ski information, now there is not even a balancing influence since the only well balanced "not brainwashed", posters have been banned.
Max found out about being banned second hand. They never informed him.
Another Red Herring.....
Plus, how many times was he warned?
Countless times.
How many times was Phil warned?
NEVER!
All that that says is that Harb can sniff out an interloper faster than the Epic staff.
I guess it is what Harald says about PSIA that really makes Epic squirm. His opinions of PSIA must be hitting some nerve of truth, even to PSIA and Epic skiers and instructors. You would have thought Epic would have given up on HH’s disgust with their skiing, teaching and understanding, if he had no merit.
He has no merit.PSIA kicked him out Period. The fixation is with the PMtSabots, continually trying to fit in. In an area they are not welcome in, and that hurts and intimidates them. Thus making them feel inferior (which they are)causing them to lash out at all other skiing methods. Due to their insecurities.
It is futile to discuss anything seriously about skiing with a few lackeys from Epic. They hold no credibility (with anyone); they can’t even put up posts of their skiing. I watched Epic skiing online, the Epic video files; the skiing is sub par and really insulting.
HH come on here. You know your methods are inferior and have no credibility. Watching your minions cutting Z turns down groomers is PRICELESS!!!!!!
To argue that HH has no support or credibility for PMTS with his counterparts in coaching; other credible coaches; is just an example of Epic minions not wanting to face facts. Just look at the credit’s on Harald’s book covers. Comments from highly successful world cup coaches and ski giants. Look at whom Harald has coached and skied with, only the best skiers from every era of skiing.
Facing facts.....thats a good one. Coming from one who shuts down any form of debate that does not fit his agenda. Give it a rest please....
To argue that WC skiers don’t use the Phantom Move is just plain ignorant. It’s clear that these people are looking at racing through PSIA glasses. They can’t see what’s in front of their faces.
Again. Lets see some quote from a CURRENT WC skier that can validate that statement. You have had quite a few days to come up with somebody. (even enough time to fabricate a good one). But you have failed, which tells me it is a crock of shit.
Epic posters here can’t see good skiing from bad skiing. And they can’t see a carved turn from a skidded PSIA “called” carve turn.
Again. Refer to my comments about the Z turns on groomed runs. Also, that ever present hunched over stance, wit a little a-frame goin' on there.
Who is void of credibility? Epic poster who have never achieved anything in skiing (not even a level 2 PSIA pin) and whose only claim of a background, is gibberish on Epic or Harald? Harald has accomplished almost everything you can accomplish in skiing. There is no reason for this argument, if you look at the realities at hand.
I agree HH is in a class ALL BY HIMSELF.
Keep chasing that green, blue, black pin while your at it too.
Only the threatened, envious, ignorant and discedited would argue against PMTS’s success, effectiveness and following.
Epic, a sorry place for ski information, now there is not even a balancing influence since the only well balanced "not brainwashed", posters have been banned.
I agree again. Wow this is amazing.
I can tell by the infamous posts from you on your site. Talk about threatened,envious,ignorant, and deceitefull posts. You should go back and re-read your own posts HH. PMtS is a horrible site that will only take you into the far reaches of darkness. You will always be pointed out on the hill by your trademark Z-Turns........ or should I say Fantom turns.
LATERZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
HH come on here. You know your methods are inferior and have no credibility. Watching your minions cutting Z turns down groomers is PRICELESS!!!!!!
Time to cut back on the peyote and booze. Then S and Z won't look the same to you any more ... the first step towards improving your skiing.
If you were sober, maybe those students you saw were following Rick's advice to ski badly off-balance for training or following Nolo's injunction to learn to ski badly so they could demonstrate bad skiing ;-) Did you ask their intent? Maybe their intent was to imitate the local PSIA deniZens (see, a Z) and make friends....
Priceless is watching the ESA 2007 video again, which I did last night for kicks. Especially lame is the segment where Nolo flings her tails out and does emergency checks at the bottom of each "turn" to avoid losing control. That's PSIA Examiner, national officer, and board of directors skiing for you. It's also Epic management skiing for you. And they both suck royally. Yes, royally, since Nolo considers herself and the ESA coaches "PSIA Royalty." ROTFLMAO
Any Mousssse
PS note that your (PSIA skier) sig has lots of Z-turns in it. My (non-PSIA skier) signature has small, tight pencil-thin S-turns in it.
S, s is for skiing and slalom and slopes and pmtS.
Z, z is for ZigZags, Zero skill, and Zeal to preserve ATS in the face of overwhelming evidence against it.
You have my sympathy. Slowly, slowly going extinct can not be fun. Will some PSIA dinousaurs evolve into beautiful hummingbirds or will the whole kindred fail? And unlike the dinosaurs, you reptiles had the means to avoid extinction in your midst and you rejected it. Sad. Too sad for words.
OK. I'll put down the Peyote and Booze, if you put down the Prozac and Zanax my friend.
If you were off the drugs you would see that you are nothing but a lemming caught in the guise of crappy skiing.
To watch the posts of your minions only capable of making ZZZZZZZZZ turns, with an over abundance of a-framing, with that hunched at that waist look. Thats what I call great skiing. I laugh at this crap!!!!!
You could have chosen to stay on the right path. But that decision was yours and now you are stuck with the ramifications of that decision.
So, have fun staying on those pristine groomers cranking out your patented "Fantom Z-Turns" and don't forget. BEND AT THE WAIST.
ROTFLMAO
LATERZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Care to tell what 'warning' Bolter final post violated.
Why were Phil and Ron banned HH?
Care to elaborate on that one.
Why does PMTS continue to lower the standards of skiing, and give it a bad name?
Asked and answered -
Phil was trying to make Harold in argument. Ron was saying maybe PMTS supporter getting financial benefit somehow. The aganda to make trouble.
The PMTS forum belong to Harold. Make trouble and banned.
Phil was trying to make Harold in argument. Ron was saying maybe PMTS supporter getting financial benefit somehow. The aganda to make trouble.
The PMTS forum belong to Harold. Make trouble and banned.
Banned for such silly and senseless reasons. PRICELESS
If you don't play by my rules I'll kick you out of my sandbox. WAAAAAH
Phil wasn't trying to make an argument. Phil was a stuck record. Multiple verbatim reposts are generally unacceptable on forums, especially when directed in challenge to a single individual.
Phil's had close brushes and warnings before. And unlike Volklskier1, Max_501, and Bolter, Phil wasn't banned. He was placed on the PMTS equivalent of time-out with a simple rule for readmission: make a meaningful, noncombative post. That's it. Just one post.
Heluvaskier swallowed his pride, acknowledged his error, and did just that and was readmitted. I'm glad he did. Somehow, I don't think the car salesman is constitutionally able to accept this good deal. He wants to get his preferred deal, but Mr. Harb isn't the same easy pushover that the car-buying public is.
The sick part of this is that Max_501 was already on record saying that Phil is a strong skier. Why Phil let that one statement get under his skin so much is a mystery to me. Car salesmen are supposed to be immune to external manipulation ....
"You could have chosen to stay on the right path. But that decision was yours and now you are stuck with the ramifications of that decision."
Now, now. You're not a very good Epicurean. There is no right and wrong, no good and bad in skiing. The first rule of epic and you blew it. What was your intent in writing that? Do you think your intent was satisfied by the realizations of your combination of skills to effect that outcome of intent? Were those combined skills, both individually and in aggregate, "consolidated" or merely "achieved"?
Oh, and I have no minions. I think you have me confused with someone else.
Time to cut back on the peyote and booze. Then S and Z won't look the same to you any more ... the first step towards improving your skiing.
If you were sober, maybe those students you saw were following Rick's advice to ski badly off-balance for training or following Nolo's injunction to learn to ski badly so they could demonstrate bad skiing ;-) Did you ask their intent? Maybe their intent was to imitate the local PSIA deniZens (see, a Z) and make friends....
Priceless is watching the ESA 2007 video again, which I did last night for kicks. Especially lame is the segment where Nolo flings her tails out and does emergency checks at the bottom of each "turn" to avoid losing control. That's PSIA Examiner, national officer, and board of directors skiing for you. It's also Epic management skiing for you. And they both suck royally. Yes, royally, since Nolo considers herself and the ESA coaches "PSIA Royalty." ROTFLMAO
Any Mousssse
PS note that your (PSIA skier) sig has lots of Z-turns in it. My (non-PSIA skier) signature has small, tight pencil-thin S-turns in it.
S, s is for skiing and slalom and slopes and pmtS.
Z, z is for ZigZags, Zero skill, and Zeal to preserve ATS in the face of overwhelming evidence against it.
You have my sympathy. Slowly, slowly going extinct can not be fun. Will some PSIA dinousaurs evolve into beautiful hummingbirds or will the whole kindred fail? And unlike the dinosaurs, you reptiles had the means to avoid extinction in your midst and you rejected it. Sad. Too sad for words.
Brilliant post. How does anyone from Epic tell someone who skied on the World Cup that he followed the wrong path? The stupidity of Epic is amazing.
As for the Max, VS, and Bolter bannings here is what I was told.
Bolter was not banned because of anything he wrote in the public forums. He was banned because in a PM conversation with Cirquerider he told him to "fuck off" and dared Cirque to ban him. Cirque obliged.
Max was originally put on timeout because he got into it with SSH. SSH is also an owner of Epic. This was upgraded to Banned after a vote was held in the stakeholders forum to ban him. Apparently it was unanimous.
I don’t know why VS got banned.
What were HH's results on the World Cup?
Or in FIS races?
They don't show up in the FIS register yet plenty of people older than HH show up.
I wonder why HH has no results showing?
As his claim to fame is being a WC skier surely he won't object posting his results sheet.
Come on HH put the results up.
Now, now. You're not a very good Epicurean. There is no right and wrong, no good and bad in skiing. The first rule of epic and you blew it. What was your intent in writing that? Do you think your intent was satisfied by the realizations of your combination of skills to effect that outcome of intent? Were those combined skills, both individually and in aggregate, "consolidated" or merely "achieved"?
As an avid PMtSer it was a combination of my Z-turn and Fantom turn. Plus being hunched over at the waist. But, you knew that already.
Oh, and I have no minions. I think you have me confused with someone else.
Thank You for the honest answer. Your stats on your site verify your statement. Just a case of creating multiple user names and talking to yourself.
Now, now go out and play like a good little PMtSian
Still waiting for verification from a current WC skier to verify. That he/she uses this so-called Fantom turn.
eassy too see ski lift and tip in WC races,,,,that verification all i need
"Still waiting for verification from a current WC skier to verify. That he/she uses this so-called Fantom turn."
Excellent point. Golf pros, for instance, never use terms like "X-Factor" to express succintly to students what movements pros are using. Oh wait, it's a well-recognized and useful practice to use those terms...never mind.
I'm willing to give you a pass on intent, it's quite likely you're new to this and therefore didn't realize what was common practice.
Yep, no soccer coach has ever told players to practice a "sweet spot" kick. MLS players would not use the term, of course...unless they were coaching developing players.
We see lift and tip used in the videos. Who cares if WC racers use the same name for that.
As I sit here sipping my manhatten I wonder what the fuss is about, I, and many others have used that for many years, long before shaped skis and it developed for me with the step-up turn, used to get a higher line in a gate.
I diverge my inside ski, put weight on that ski which is still on the little toe edge and lift and tip the old outside ski. Weight is not actually transferred uphill, just onto that ski. With the body weight/CM now out of balance downhill the weighted ski will roll onto the new inside edge becoming the outside turning ski.
Sometimes a lot of divergence is used and sometimes non, depending on the situation at the time.
In the 1950s in Austria this was standard fare and I use it all the time even in recreational skiing.
...Ott
Excellent point. Golf pros, for instance, never use terms like "X-Factor" to express succintly to students what movements pros are using. Oh wait, it's a well-recognized and useful practice to use those terms...never mind.
I'm willing to give you a pass on intent, it's quite likely you're new to this and therefore didn't realize what was common practice.
You really are clueless........
Go back to your home base and re-read all the threads that have a pic of a WC skier. And the quotes there after praising the idividual for using the patented Fantom turn.
If you can see past your condescending posts. You might be able to grasp what is going on here.
I give you a fail on understanding my friend.
Still patiently waiting for a qoute from a current WC skier to verify that he/she uses the patented PMtS Fantom turn.
Why?
Hey Ott, what your the intent with diverging inside ski?
"Still patiently waiting for a qoute from a current WC skier to verify that he/she uses the patented PMtS Fantom turn."
Crikey!, Whoever keeps writing this is obviously a bit slow, not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed poor soul, so his/her reading comprehension skills are not quite there. Maybe a picture will help him/her see the move, assuming he/she just can't spell and Fantom means Phantom in the P.M.T.S.
Would someone maybe post a link to a sequence or video of some W.C. slalom gates and try to show him/her what the move is? I don't think Ott's description was comprehended either perhaps some old pictures showing the lighten and tip move would help show the origins of the moves that are so well described to the discerning ski public in the P.M.T.S. literature.
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