Tuesday, August 12, 2008

MA for the GP

The fixation with Harald Harb is really something. I guess it really must be intense envy. Is it that he has been able to have success independently? Let me again make something clear. I am not a PMTS member. I have never met HH or attended a clinic. I am certified by PSIA.

Now let's look at the skiing of the public in a very general sense. First of all the role of ski instruction has changed dramatically over the years. In the past there was a need to take lessons. Changes in areas such as equipment and grooming mitigated that need at least in the eyes of the public. The result has been that many many skiers are either self taught, taught by friends or take a beginner lesson and then are self taught. 

Now let's look at the public's performance on the hill in a general sense. Their skiing can best be described as pivoting t a skid or windshield wiper turns or Z turns. They use a variety of releases from picking skis up to big up movements. But they all use massive rotary movements. There may be upper body rotation at initiation as well. But the end result is that tail does not follow the tip. They cannot make round turns.

Now let's tie this back to how they are learning. They are self taught or taught be friends. ( Let's hope to god this is true because if it isn't ski instruction in the NA is a real failure). The twisting of their bodies or feet ends in a bad result. It is clearly a movement pattern that comes naturally to them. They instinctively know how to throw their skis sideways. So why oh why does PSIA teach people from the first wedge turn to turn their feet? Shouldn't they be taught how to balance on an edge. release the edge and use the ski?

How long will it take PSIA to back peddle out of the steering hole they've dug and continue to dig for themselves? It took them about 10 years on the stance issue.




185 comments:

Anonymous said...

VS1= Harold.... yes it is spelled HAROLD Harb.

Anonymous said...

wow..what an insightful comment! Is that an example of what's available in the premium content sections on Epic?

Anonymous said...

Well done! You've killed the strawman of your own construction. Bravo...Again.

[quote] They use a variety of releases from picking skis up to big up movements. But they all use massive rotary movements. There may be upper body rotation at initiation as well. But the end result is that tail does not follow the tip. They cannot make round turns.

Now let's tie this back to how they are learning. They are self taught or taught be friends. ( Let's hope to god this is true because if it isn't ski instruction in the NA is a real failure). The twisting of their bodies or feet ends in a bad result. It is clearly a movement pattern that comes naturally to them. They instinctively know how to throw their skis sideways. So why oh why does PSIA teach people from the first wedge turn to turn their feet? Shouldn't they be taught how to balance on an edge. release the edge and use the ski?[/quote]

Anonymous said...

1. The fixation with Harb, comes from all of his negativity with anything that does not agree with him.
Oh, but you are a PMTS member.

You signed up on their forum, and that my friend makes you a mmember.

2. You cannot change the economics my friend. People are going to continue to poach lessons from friends etc. Sad as it is. I doubt that this will ever change.

3. Majority of the people don't even turn at all. The ones that try to, are doing whatever they can to turn.
Maybe thats what they call a phantom turn.

4. If you are PSIA as you say you are. Then you should be able to answer the questions yourself. Or did you not make it past learning how to teach a wedge turn?

5. You really are out of touch with PSIA aren't you.

Anonymous said...

re: 1. ... Oh, but you [VS1] are a PMTS member. You signed up on their forum, and that my friend makes you a mmember.

Any Mouse here, saying that 1) is rrrrridiculous. Or as we say in PMTS-speak, ridicules :-) Current and former pmts forum member handles include names very familiar from Epic including the Epic management team and vocal non-pmts instructors on Epic. The most you can conclude from VS1's membership is open-mindedness. Reading VS1's post you could also deduce an interest in PMTS and some degree of appreciation for PMTS principles and Harb's success. Nowhere in VS1's post is it clear that VS1 skis PMTS or wants to. (Hey, VS1, why not try out a camp or attend an accreditation event to see if you'd like to ski PMTS? If you give it any honest try, I'm sure you'll wind up joining us.)

re 5. You [VS1] really are out of touch with PSIA aren't you.

I'm not PSIA, but I have studied all of the training material (current and dated) available on the web from regional PSIA orgs and "how to pass your level XXX" websites authored by individual instructors, who sometimes post PSIA materials not generally available to the public. This material, including that recently pointed out by Epic's own BB, suggests that VS1 is intimately in touch with current PSIA practices and views, both in principle and on the hill. Get some Windex and defog that mirror in front of you, oh great PSIA sage ;-)

Anonymous said...

Lets see if I can make this easier for you Any Mouse.

He signed up on the PMTS forum, posts on that forum, is involved in discussions about PMTS, is a proponant of PMTS, supported PMTS discussion on Epic, and in PMTS spirit bashes pretty much anything that isn't PMTS.

Thus he is a member of PMTS, just as he USED to be a member of Epic.

Do you need me to help you through the fog anymore?

Anonymous said...

Put the whiskey down, and everything's going to be ok. The real question is, is VS1 now, or has he ever been associated with, a member of....

I would quibble some with his MA of the GP. He would have seen some really good, if somewhat raw, skiers @Jackson who emphatically were not ski school products and who never raced. Self-taught, or more-often mentored, skiers who get out a lot by my bias often use their skis better than ski school products, are less inhibited in their movements, and in general ski better though their hand and pole discipline may not be so purty.

In terms of the wedge on up, there are several issues. Aside from retraining instructors and many instructors not, from an ego perspective, being able to handle the loss of sttention and control that would come with more of a carving focus, learning to ride an edge takes real estate, time, and while it sounds corny a little bit of guts on the part of the student. Not that different fromsurf "schools" where the market pull is definitely to get people standing up, with photos to take home, within the first hour in the water.

-Keyboard Surfer

Anonymous said...

So you're PSIA certified. Well that shouldn't impress anyone based on your statements. Just show up and put your boots on and you get a Level 1 (I believe that was your line.)

So what are you Level 1? You say you're an instructor. Well why should we believe you? You're a fucking coward who wont' disclose his identity (unlike me who won't disclose my identity because it's fun bashing you on your stupid website and I don't CLAIM to know squat.)

You probably can't ski.
You probably can't teach.
You probably are a total failure.

I'm just sayin.

And you've given noone any reason to believe otherwise.

The Phantom Ski Expert you is.

But at least unlike the epic folks you are SO open minded and accepting of people.

It would really suck to be your student knowing that you think that your students can't ski.

Perhaps that's why you don't want anyone to know who you are. Who would want to take lessons from such a demeaning, judgemental and critical person.

I bet there are the occasional "Pop" sounds when you pull your head out of your asshole to see what's going on around you.

Oh by the way, in case you didn't notice. I don't like you.

Anonymous said...

When people post as you did, it shows a real lack of knowledge regarding PSIA. When I became an instructor, you were either certified or not. There was no associate, there was no level 3 or level 2 or level 1. When you say full or certified it is understood.

I think from the posts here that it is clear that the Epic crowd doesn't really have much to say if it doesn't involve bashing PMTS, Harald Harb or me. Once and for all it has become plain to see that the Epic crowd has one POV, that of the foul mouthed bully. When I see Eric, I am going to ask him about his association with Epic.

I posed a simple theory regarding how the public skis and why they ski that way. In light of these observations I come to the conclusion that the focus on rotary movements that PSIA has been espousing make no sense at all. It's been 2 decades but the back pedaling is finally starting.
\
VS1

Anonymous said...

VS, apart from your firmly held belief that epic is solely responsible for every bad skier in the world, do you have any other chips on your shoulders?

As a follow up question, what is your knowledge of other instructor organisations apart from PSIA, or of skiers who have been taught by them?

Anonymous said...

actually the bullying is NOT an epic thing. that's why you were banned as far as I can see because epic strives for civility and you were unable to be civil.

it's just fun to give you a taste of your own medicine.

So since you've been certified for so long that they didn't even have level 1,2 and 3 that would mean you are totally out of touch with PSIA. For you to say my post shows MY lack of knowledge about PSIA is laughable. You know damn well how a "certified" PSIA instructor can be pretty low level if only Level 1.

Anonymous said...

This is pretty funny. The history of multi-level certs was basically to give people who weren't ready for a cert something they could still get and pay money for. Grade deflation, revenue generation.

One more amusing part of Epic is that some people there take certs, even Level IIs, awfully seriously. On the one hand, I doubt many people would post here at all if VS1 weren't clearly a PSIA member -- his status as an instructor is what grants him legitimacy to people, not whether he has a point about skiing. To attack him, people try to belittle his instructor rank. Basically proving his point about it being a social club for many people.

Hot tub on that for a bit.

Anonymous said...

Your analysis of the history regarding why they went to levels I, II, & III are way off base. Try again with that one.
As far as people being serious about their certification is a good thing. Huh. You have a problem with that.
What about the Phantom PMTS path. I guess they are in a class by themselves. Where they don't have to take things serious. Just drink the KOOLAID.
As for people posting because he is a PSIA instructor, is crap!
Lets get it right. He is an out of touch PSIA instructor.
But it is perfectly OK to belittle and attack Epic members on PMTS's site.

Sounds like you've overdone it in te hot tub. You might wanna get out soon.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure how I can be an "out of touch PSIA Instructor". You have to go to their events if you want to remain certfied. Now if I am out of touch then it is only because PSIA examiners have not been informing me properly.

To the other poster, I never said Epic was responsible for all the bad skiers in the world. But they are certainly helping to perpetuate poor skiing by supporting concepts such as rotary and steering.

I do have experience with CSIA and also spent a week with the french ski school in chamonix.
VS1

Ott Gangl said...

As out the history of certification in America, I may be able to shed some light on that.

Prior to 1965 or so the certification in the US was the USSA=United States Ski Association and there were two stages to it, the round pin was called an Associate Ski Instructor, (NOT an Associate CERTIFIED ski instructor) and was for the not-ready-for-prime-time instructors, and the rectangular pin was called the Certified Ski Instructors pin.

Around that time Willy Schaeffler and his cohorts in the Rocky Mountains wanted to separate the professional ski instructors from USSA, which at that time was strictly governing amateur racers at sanctioned races, and the Olympics. They created a club known as the Professional Ski Instructors of America, PSIA. (Full) Certified Instructors could join PSIA by paying $5.00 and get a pin with their name engraved, it didn’t mean anything at the time since USSA was still the certifying agency.

Thus came about the big fight at Iron Mountain Michigan when instructors and representatives from all over put their voice to it, half wanted to go with PSIA and half wanted to stay with USSA. After a long night of bickering, USSA conceded the certifying to PSIA. It was early in the season and PSIA wanted dues money for the ranks that joined it from USSA, but it did not want to give any to them and it ended in court with PSIA winning.

PSIA kept the divisions that were set up by USSA but it took a few years before any training manuals came from headquarters and often they arrived at the ski schools in March-April, useless because by December things had changed.

During that time PSIA issued numbers to the instructors who decided to join them, mine is 325, there are many thousands now. There was rivalry among the divisions, the Eastern considered themselves the toughest and considered the Central, especially Ohio the weakest, not considering that at that time ski instructors in Ohio were almost exclusive European, Austrian, German, Hungarian, etc. who skied in the Alps since childhood.

Though knowing how to ski the ‘Final Forms’ was mandatory, learning how to teach was of most importance. Because of the lag in manuals from PSIA, many divisions, Central included, printed their own and even issued their own certification pins.

In PSIA it used to be called ‘Registered Apprentice’, ‘Associate Certified’, and ‘Full Certified’ instructor. When they were reclassified in to 1,2 and 3 escapes me right now.

I am putting a link to three pictures showing various pins, etc.

http://corrr1.com/Badges2.jpg

The upper left PSIA pin was the original pewter pin ($5.00) . the round one is the USSA Associate pin, the triangular one is the CSIA (Central Ski Instructors Association) and the lower right is Ann’s Associate PSIA with the red background and the © for central.

http://corrr1.com/Badges4.jpg

The PSIA pin with the blue background in the © is my Full Certified pin, the rectangular is my Certification pin from USSA and the ISIA (International Ski Instructor Association) could be had for the asking after making Full but was not valid to get a job overseas unless the actual ISIA test is completed which among other things requires teaching in two languages.

http://corrr1.com/ISIA.jpg

This is an old PSIA-ISIA pass with the ISIA stamp and PSIA card.

I hope I shed some light as to the history of certification in America, but as someone said, if you don’t keep current with the ever changing techniques made possible by equipment advances and teaching methodologies, certification is meaningless.

…Ott

Anonymous said...

Thank You Ott!

Anonymous said...

People post here because they respect VS1!


NOT!!!

I post here as I said to give him a taste of his own medicine.

Respect someone who can do no better then to tear down and has absolutely no constructive approach?

I reserve my respect for instructors who want to help people, not who wallow in the mudslinging, proselytizing bs.

Give me a caring instructor of lesser skiing abilities any day over an inflated ego instructor who skis better. (Of course I'm not talking about VS1 because we have NO IDEA how well he actually skis.)

Anonymous said...

Ott, thank you for the read. The reality is though that the "apprentice" system changed to a system of registered "Levels." Terms do matter. There is still an "apprentice" status in fact, which is most relevant at some destination resorts where official policy is that "apprentices" without their Level I are qualified to teach only kids but not allowed to be the "lead" teacher of regular classes, at least early in the season. Of course, some apprentices ski and teach better than Level IIIs, and some have barely been on skis themselves. When friends ask me about what to look for in taking lessons, that's one reason why I stress that instructor cert level should never be taken into account.

-Keyboard Surfer

Anonymous said...

<<<"Give me a caring instructor of lesser skiing abilities any day over an inflated ego instructor who skis better.">>>


I think that's the most ridiculous thing I ever read.

Anonymous said...

I think that's the most ridiculous thing I ever read.



Really.


Just head on over to the PMTS forum, and thats all you'll see.

Anonymous said...

re: I reserve my respect for instructors who want to help people, not who wallow in the mudslinging, proselytizing bs.

Well, that's half of a good strategy. If you'd reserve respect for instructors who want to help people and actually can help people, then you'd have a respectable policy there. Ganz quatsch as it is.

Just calling a spade a spade.

Ott, thanks for the history lesson. An earlier commenter was right, names do matter and PSIA diminished itself when it switched to L1-L3 certified instructors.

Anonymous said...

<<<"Just head on over to the PMTS forum, and thats all you'll see.">>>

1. As a former national examiner and national alpine team member, Harald is as well placed as anyone to critique PSIA. While there, he realized the ugly truths that had festered in PSIA over the decades, and he tried to reform from within before breaking away. What you see is "tough love," the grave disappointment of a mentor/coach figure who will reengage with those who come to realize and admit the problem (many PSIA instructors have quietly attended his accreditation and training sessions doing just this.)

2. We all know that web personas and real-life personas often differ. In person, Harald is a caring, concerned instructor, just about the best anyone could ever ask for.

Sorry, VS1, for bringing Harb into your blog again but the smear against him warranted a response.

Anonymous said...

1. I am well aware of his past qualifications with PSIA. He did what he had to do and moved on. Just as many have before him and after him. Just because of that, I guess it gave him a license to go around and bash a system he used to stand for.
Thats what so attracted me to the PMTS system. To benefit the organization through the rampant negativity of all others on ski's instead of us.
Great marketing strategy!

2. I am sure Harald is a great person in person. I have never met him so I cannot personally comment on that. Only by the postings on the web site.

Remember everybody is an "e-thug" on the internet.

....and it's not so much about always bringing Harald into the argument. As it is his drones.

Anonymous said...

Logging lots of airport time...

One aspect that has not been touched on directly is the variation between different resorts' ski schools. My casual observation is that both Jackson and Snowbird schools have a pretty good average quality of instructor and quality of instruction, for instance. This may seem intuitive given their terrain but would not be how I characterized all similar resorts' schools. Since VS1 clearly has travelled a lot it would be interesting to hear his opinion of which are "good" schools where an average tourist could do well through potluck on the instruction front.

Anonymous said...

Both PSIA and PMTS teach carved and non carved turns. PSIA teaches a variety of non carving called steering. PMTS teaches only one form of non carving. They call it the "Bullet Proof Short Turn".

Steering is a very precise form of non carving that allows complete control over the amount of manual turning force being directed to the skis. In steering, a wide range of turn shapes are available, as are a wide range of steering angles. When small steering angles are used, the resultant skiing can look very much like carving. When a large steering angle is used, speed control is maximized. Good steering skills allow the turn shape and steering angle to be altered at any moment during a turn, to satisfy any need or desire.

The bullet proof short turn uses a thing called co-contraction to direct manual turning force to the ski. The well kept secret is that co-contraction is part of PSIA steering too. Has to be, or steering would not work. Co-contraction is why when you watch a person execute a steered turn well, it's impossible to see where the force turning the skis is coming from. There are NO visually evident rotary movements taking place. No upper body rotation. No counter rotation. No arm motion. No pivoting at the beginning of the turn. Just a smooth turn of any chosen shape, produced by a VERY movement and energy efficient skier.

The bullet proof short turn is different. PMTS uses amplified counter going into the transition, so that upon release co-contraction causes the tails of the skis to pivot out to the side and re-direct the skis for entry into the new turn. Take away the counter and the pivot is gone, and the BPST doesn't work. It definitely is bullet proof, because this pivoting will shorten a turn radius every time, and the pivoting is glaringly evident to see in any PMTS BPST footage. They claim the rotary force going to the skis is passive and unintentional. This is generally accurate. They are simply setting up the rotary force to auto happen upon release, and then they just co-contract and let happen what will. What happens is always some form of pivot.

The problem with this passive and unintentional approach of the BPST is that it limits the amount of control the skier has over turn shape, steering angle, and turn entry. It's going to be pivoted, and it's going to be short. Steering provides much more control over those turn elements, because the the rotary applied to the skis IS active and intentional. The skier has complete control over every aspect of the turn. The turn can be massively pivoted, if the skier desires that, or it can have an ultra smooth and pivot free initiation, or it can be any variation between those two extremes. The turn can be very short, replicating the shape of the BPST, or it can be of a much larger radius. Good steering skills provides a skier full freedom of choice over the type of turn they will make.

Really, to say that helping skiers develop good steering skills is grounds for calling PSIA ineffective and out of touch, is really quite silly. Both PSIA and PMTS teach non carved turns. The only difference is that PSIA teaches a version that provides more options, and uses movement patterns that are more body motion conservative than the BPST approach. And both PSIA and PMTS use their non carving training as a stepping stone to carving, as well as to provide an alternative for for skiing terrain where pure carving is less of an option. Both PSIA and PMTS try to refine their students non carving skill, and both teach them how to carve.

I think the biggest difference between PSIA and PMTS is actually found in the approach and mentality of the students who employ them. So many PSIA students are the occasional, non serious participant. They want, in a single lesson, to quickly learn how to simply get to point A to point B in a safe and non terrifying way. They're not looking to be a great skier, and don't plan on ever pursuing a high level of skiing. PSIA has to cater to that student desire, so the steering side of the learning spectrum obviously sees more traffic. When the more serious student shows up and puts in the time, high level skills can be worked towards.

PMTS has developed a program that is geared to skiers who are more motivated to learn and improve. The training requirements of the program actually discourage the non serious skier, so those who sign on are the inherently dedicated. The market of potential students for this type of program is more limited, but because the students it does attract are motivated and willing to train hard, the potential for good results is high.

PSIA and PMTS are just different animals. PMTS trains serious skiers. PSIA trains the occasional serious skier, and also the casual client looking for an instant fix, or perhaps even a mountain guide with a pretty smile. PSIA serves a broader market, so of course parts of the product offering will look different, and obviously the results sheet will be watered down. Any results discrepancies between PSIA and PMTS have much to do with student motivation levels, and nothing to do with improving their steering skills. PSIA, in teaching good steering skills, actually strives to eliminate the pivoting that most low skilled recreational skiers do. The same pivoting that the BPST promotes.

Harry

Anonymous said...

False: PMTS uses amplified counter going into the transition, so that upon release co-contraction causes the tails of the skis to pivot out to the side and re-direct the skis for entry into the new turn.

Harald rejects this and the names counterrotation and anticipation that are associated with it. He refers to counteracting movements instead. The drill leading to the BPST is the two-footed release exercise. In this drill, the tails stay stationary while the tips -- yes the tips -- are pulled downhill by gravity until the fall-line where normal high edge engagement occurs. In actual sking beyond drill speeds, the tails do move and obscure to the untrained eye the focus on the shovels.

Partly false: And both PSIA and PMTS use their non carving training as a stepping stone to carving

In PMTS, carving comes relatively early in the learning sequence. It's a place to learn the essential movements with the security blanket of firm edge engagement. The BPST usually is achieved after learning to carve, so the PMTS view is almost the reverse of yours. High-C carving is a stepping stone to a non-carved "brushed" BPST with all the essential movements developed earlier in carving.

True: PSIA and PMTS are just different animals.

Harry,
You're clearly trying to be level-headed about both systems. I presume you, like most of us, have had plenty of PSIA contact and are probably PSIA certified. Have you considered attending a Harb Ski Systems accreditation or camp for recreational skiers? The camps are much cheaper than private lessons and are a good way to learn about PMTS and its clientele. Try it. You just might like it -- as you say, PMTS works well for serious students of skiing. And at the least you could make a better comparison of the two.

(Of course, if Max_501, Bolter, and Volklskier1 were still on EpicSki, then they could teach you all about it. A loss to all of us. Are you reading this, Phil? SSH? Cirque?)

Any Mouse

Anonymous said...

ANy Mouse
Why do I need to learn a Phantom system?


All this jibber jabber about new techniques is rubbish.

All Harb did was take a teaching system that has been in practice for quite a few years and twist and change the words to fit his agenda.

Nice try tho!

Anonymous said...

Anymouse you are right about the 2 sytems being totally different,

PMTS= Will hurt and screw up your skiing.

PSIA= Will improve yor skiing, and make you a better skier.

Stay away from PMTS because if you don't look the way they want you to. They will ridicule you.

Anonymous said...

False: PMTS uses amplified counter going into the transition, so that upon release co-contraction causes the tails of the skis to pivot out to the side and re-direct the skis for entry into the new turn.


Mouse,
All you have to do to prove to yourself that counter is a mandatory element of the BPST is to go through a transition rotationally square to your skis, and try to pull off a BPST. Call it counter, call it counteracting, it has to be there for the BPST to work as designed.

And the design does give birth to a pivot. I understand what you're saying about the gravity driven falling of the tips into the falline. That's a basic turn initiation drill used by many teaching progressions. In it's purest form, the tails closely follow the tips, and there's little apparent pivot. But the drill is so passive, being gravity driven, it provides little driver management potential. That's why it's only a drill.

It's when higher speeds come into play, and more "counteracting" positions are used through the transition that the pivoting shown in most BPST's starts to spring to life. That the tails go uphill and out in unison with the tips going downhill and in is just evidence of a higher form of pivoting. But it's still a pivot. It's creating a large steering angle. It's very much in contrast to a well executed steered turn that uses little counteraction, produces an extremely small steering angle, and exhibits a very clean turn initiation with absolutely no pivot, yet can still reduce the radius of the turn dramatically. If you saw the BPST and a high quality steered turn side by side, you'd understand what I mean. A well executed steered turn really is a thing of elegant beauty. As pretty as a carved turn, but in a different style and color dress.

As far as PMTS using the carved turn as a platform for learning basic skills, and saving the BPST for later, does that mean they consider the non carved BPST a more difficult platform to perform and learn new skills on? Interesting. So they then would consider what PSIA is doing in using the steered turn as a platform for learning fundamental skills the more difficult task? I agree with the virtues of a stable carving edge, but that edge also results in higher speeds that scares the bageebers out of many low skill skiers who don't yet have the balance or spontaneous reaction skills to deal with them, or the edging skills to control those speeds, or the balance skills to support the needed edging skills.

And I've got to be honest. I've skied with a number of PMTS skiers who fall very short in the base skills department, and are still struggling with the basic carving platform you say they're using to learn the base skills on. Really, Mouse, in my eyes it just doesn't seem to be working that well. Putting the cart before the horse (carving before non carving) seems to introduce obstacles that inhibit development in base skills and carving. The obstacles can be overcome with hard work, as Max has done. But when I was skiing with those guys I couldn't help but think if I had a couple days to work with them they'd have base skills that would make the carving they so covet much easier to come by. Don't ask me for the names of the people I'm speaking of. I won't offer them up for public display and ridicule. That wouldn't be right. I only mention it so that you understand that my expressed opinions are based on personal observation of PMTS students who have been at it for a while.

Harry

Anonymous said...

It's funny to see the continued fixation with PMTS in the comments. If you want to see people critical of Epic and more generally PSIA, all you have to do is talk to bump skiers.

Epic seems set for another spin cycle of Epic gurus attacking someone who actually skis bumps, should be interesting.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"It's funny to see the continued fixation with PMTS in the comments."

Funny, or just replying to the topic?

Anonymous said...

The topic was an analysis of the general public's average skiing, with the conclusion that large rotary inputs come naturally to most skiers. VS1 therefore questions whether PSIAs emphasis on rotary is the right path. VS1 did include the diclaimer that he's not a PMTS member and is a PSIA cert. You could view what he's saying as a replay of the Ski Coach threads on Epic from maybe 4 years ago at this point. Nothing new, nothing specific to PMTS.

Anonymous said...

And I've got to be honest. I've skied with a number of PMTS skiers who fall very short in the base skills department,...

Sure, there are skiers of all stripes who fall short of their aspirations. There's no silver bullet; it takes a work ethic to succeed with any approach. I was watching Jon Olsson's video blog last night where he said "sucking really sucks" because enough folks skied more skillfully than he did to keep him off a podium in New Zealand last week.

Stop and look the next time you're on the hill with one of those seriously lacking pmts skiers. They're still much better than the majority of the PSIA-trained skidders on the hill. I've done the comparison before watching newbie pmts skiers at a camp. They're still learning and have much to learn, but even they put most of the more traditionally educated skiers to shame.

Sticking to skiing professionals who are in the public light, I've seen video of Bob B (Keystone not WP)and the previous PSIA d-team doing "high performance steered turns." I've also seen d-team equivalents from other countries on video doing steered turns. Are those the turns you believe I should compare to what I've seen black-certified PMTS instructors do? If so, it's your right to hold that mistaken opinion. You're obviously highly experienced, so rather than drawing conclusions based on pmts students' skiing, spend a day with one of Harald's hand-picked coaches for his camps (Jay, Max Sherwood not 501, Maria, Glenn, Rich, Diana, ...) and you might just be pleasantly surprised.

Mouse

Anonymous said...

Mouse,

1.Good point.

2.I doubt that. PMTS ers are more hunched over at the waist. Also their turn shape looks more like Z turns. They are not rounded. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

3. No doubt, that all of those names mentioned are sufficient skiers. But, you cannot compare them to PSIA skiers or the Demo team. They are no macth , and never will be.



Anymouse=Harald





PK

Anonymous said...

"(Of course, if Max_501, Bolter, and Volklskier1 were still on EpicSki, then they could teach you all about it. A loss to all of us. Are you reading this, Phil? SSH? Cirque?)

Any Mouse"

No thanks. Things are going just fine leaving them here. The results have been increased activity, greater civility and much more focused discussions among friends. This is a good discussion here. Please carry on.

Cirque

Anonymous said...

re: Anymouse=Harald

PK, LOL ,,, I wish I skied like Harald. Phil P. named this anonymous poster, taunting him by calling him "Any Mouse." I responded by using that moniker. In an earlier comment Any Mouse asked Phil about Hart skis since he skis some of the same places Phil does and Phil is a Hart rep. Harald skis Colorado; Any Mouse skis the east coast. Harald picks up the phone and tells the listener what skis he will be trying. Any Mouse politely inquires from manufacturer reps. See a pattern here? Any Mouse != HH.

As for your assessments #2 and 3, did you ever read DC comic books as a kid? I think you must be writing from Bizarro World. Or could it be that you really haven't spent any time with PMTS skiers? Hmmmm? Almost any other charge you level against novices of any system I could believe, but not Z-shaped turns of anyone with even an hour's instruction in PMTS. That's the smoking gun evidence stacked against you, as they say.

But let's forget these childish internet battles and start doing your snow dances! Loveland aims to start blowing snow in 34 days and A-basin will give them a hard run for the title of first-opener. (Cirque, you and your followers on Epic should join in; summoning early snows benefits us all.)

Any Mouse (not a Colorado resident)

Anonymous said...

Come on Anymouse. You are way off base. And would never know in your wildest dreams.

What is with this continued jibber jabber about an inferior system called PMTS. I wouldn't even recommend this to my worst enemies. They try to emulate world class (PSIA) skiers that they will never be.


....and yes they do ski hunched over!

.... and yes their turn shapes are Z TURNS!


Accept it and get over it.

Anonymous said...

"They try to emulate world class (PSIA) skiers that they will never be."

LMAO!!!!

YEAH ssh and bpa and THE RUSTY and Weems and Nolo are world class! How clueless are you! Even their best aren't world class. My god PSIA can't even field an interski team anymore. I suggest you check out one of the many instructor traiign programs in the world that truly are world class.

Best laugh I've had in months!

Anonymous said...

World Class is a funny phrase here. I don't dispute PSIA's being in the same class as the rest of the ISIA instructor world (World Class = Group of Globally Piss Poor Skiers) Thanks for pointing out that World Class need not mean best in the world. I now understand your earlier comments much better and thank you for the compliment of not being "World Class."

Any Mouse

PS BTW, Since you said Bob B. of Keystone was a superb skier earlier in this thread and since he is a professional, somebody go do that poor boy a favor and show him how misaligned he is in the animated gifs he has posted this year. Remind him to fix his footbeds and boots at the least. And take away his poles for a few weeks so he can unlearn his one-sided turn-killing pole swing. Maybe then our vision will be unblocked and his expertise will be apparent to us.

Bizarro World, definitely.

Here's a wager. Take 20 mechanical engineering or physics professors from top 10 departments, teach them a 6-week short course on kinesiology, physiology, and anatomy and then provide them with PSIA and PMTS training materials and videos. Give them season passes, equipment, access to the best PSIA- and PMTS-affiliated bootfitters, and transportation to snow to conduct experiments. I'll bet you that at least 18 of the 20 would choose PMTS as the only system of the two that makes sense and that any naysayers have close family or friends in PSIA.

Sorry VS1 for hijacking your forum; eventually if the light of truth is shined brightly enough upon these PSIA trolls they'll turn to stone and cease disturbing the peace and safety of skiers everywhere. What will the independent Epic mods do when their PSIA troll bedmates meet their doom?

Ott Gangl said...

>>>PSIA trolls they'll turn to stone and cease disturbing the peace and safety of skiers everywhere.<<<

You have obviously not taught a bus load full of junior high kids.

...Ott

Anonymous said...

Just a keen observation here:

I noticed that all of the horrible skiers ( if that is what you want to call them ) are definite products of PMTS lessons.

I mean come-on, hunched at the waist, and Z turns. Get real take a lesson from a Pro.
Look towards any PSIA instructor and they may help you before it is to late.

Anonymous said...

<<<I mean come-on, hunched at the waist, and Z turns. Get real take a lesson from a Pro. Look towards any PSIA instructor and they may help you before it is to late.>>>

Hey, you talking about me? You forgot to add that I can't steer my turns or do hockey stops, having no rotary skills to mention. I can't maintain a balanced athletic stance because one ski is light or in the air and my skis are less than 3 feet apart. And I do this old-fashioned hip angulation / counterbalance thing that looks really weird. I haven't yet mastered knuckle dragging my poles, so they're raised high and out to the sides. And I'm not allowed to do knee angulation because that's a no-no. I can't even do the snowplow christie thingie because it takes too much concentration and I've spent so much time focusing on the little toe edge that I don't know how to put both skis on the big toe edge anymore. Am I beyond redemption or can your PSIA Pro save my skiing? At $500 per private lesson, how much would salvation cost me? Say to reach the upper end of your level 8 for starters. Should I seek out one of the PSIA pros in Epic management to avoid the problem BB alludes to periodically (some bad apples in the PSIA barrel)?

currently a pmts skier

Anonymous said...

Not to worry, you have a great O-frame and inadvertent rotation that more than makes up for the deficiencies. Besides, you can join ESA for about $900 for four days, which means your cost per day is about $225/day.

On second thought, why not just ski. This thread reads like Epic used to. The confederate war of skiing. If you don't recognize that good skiing is excellent, no matter who labels it, you are missing out on the whole point, including the reason VS1 was banned.

Enjoy this exile. While you are all playing here the PMTS.org site is averaging 3 posts per day. I'm just too impressed.

Anonymous said...

Sure, there are skiers of all stripes who fall short of their aspirations. There's no silver bullet; it takes a work ethic to succeed with any approach.

This is the most universally accurate thing that has been said in this discussion.


Stop and look the next time you're on the hill with one of those seriously lacking pmts skiers. They're still much better than the majority of the PSIA-trained skidders on the hill.

How can we know what the training background of the general public skiers we're watching is? Most of those we watch ski by us have had little. It's really not a fair or accurate comparison evaluation to use skiers who have had few lessons and put little effort into training as a representation of the effectiveness of PSIA instruction, and as a comparison of such to students who've been working diligently at the PMTS learning system. You seem like a reasonable guy/gal (not sure what you call a female mouse). Surely you must agree?

Sticking to skiing professionals who are in the public light, I've seen video of Bob B (Keystone not WP)and the previous PSIA d-team doing "high performance steered turns." I've also seen d-team equivalents from other countries on video doing steered turns. Are those the turns you believe I should compare to what I've seen black-certified PMTS instructors do?

I don't know the exact turns you're talking about, so I really can't say. I will say that I've seen many PSIA demo'd steered turns that have a lot of pivot coming out of the transition, just like the PMTS version I've seen from some of those top coaches you mention. I'd actually like to see more PSIA demo'd non pivoted versions put up for public display. It's the higher skill form of the turn category. Pivoting is what most recreational skiers already do, and its a habit that makes arc to arc a more distant target.

The non pivoted steered turn contains very refined rotary, and looks and skis very smooth and efficient. The PMTS pivoted version looks more dynamic and energetic. So what do you like, blonds or redheads? What looks better to you, and how you like to ski, will be a personal choice. And it can be argued till the cows come home. It's a silly argument. What's "best" is being able to do both. I've seen both displayed by PSIA skiers. I haven't seen both from PMTS skiers. I've just seen the pivoted version. It does produce more of a Z turn shape, though I'd personally call them comma shaped turns. I'm sure Harald and company can do the non pivoted round turn variety. It just seems he/they focus more on the pivoted type.

Harry

Philpug said...

This really is funny. blaming bad skiing on PSIA is like blaming McDonalds because people are overweight. Joe and Jane Skiers just do not commit to a lesson program. PMTS's students are fanatic about learning and because there is a strong intent to get better, vs, just go out and have fun sliding down the hill, they are (or should be) committed to improving.

ESA is 925 for 4 days, I don't think that is much different than a PMTS course once you add cost of list tickets (not included in PMTS pricing) .

I was never much of a lesson taker, I usually learned from watching what I think is good skiing and emulating it. I did enjoy learning from Dan Egan when he coached for ESA. Dan is about an non traditional as anyone, so to say that EPIC and ESA is ALL about PSIA, shows that you are making blanket statements without having all the information, how smart is that?

Anonymous said...

No one in these comments asserted that Epic and ESA are all about PSIA, except for Phil bringing it up to then shoot it down. I do note that, after previously having deleted mentions of Deslauriers' book on Epic, for instance, that Eric D is now affiliated with ESA. The level of misinformation on Epic is, well, you be the judge.

Philpug said...

Typical lame use of symantics, that has been an underlying excuse of PMTS forever. Typical argument, misdirection, the PMTS way. The one thing I will say about Harald, he uses his name and not afraid to stand up. Not like the likes of a coward like VS1 or some of the cowards that either won't use their name or afraid to even post a video of themselves. Be an man, use your name. I have called out "Any Mouse".."Mouse" is the key word there.

Anonymous said...

I think Phil is showing what Epic is about.

Anonymous said...

"I do note that, after previously having deleted mentions of Deslauriers' book on Epic, for instance, that Eric D is now affiliated with ESA. The level of misinformation on Epic is, well, you be the judge."

Speaking of misinformation, how about yours?
Eric has been part of the ESAs since he taught at the second one. To imply that it is some new association is a lie. My memory is not good enough to go back 5+ years to remember if all references to his book were removed at some time, but I can't recall that happening.

Anonymous said...

I never said "all." "Deleted mentions" does not mean all.

Strong words. If there was an active affiliation the whole time I certainly apologize and retract any implication. People can look at posting history and so forth and debate what the meaning of active is.

Anonymous said...

Since it was brought up, Eric Deslauriers has been a member of EpicSki Since October 2001 with the user name Eski, and has coached at several ESA camps. His book "Ski the Whole Mountain" and Xteam Adventures ski school have never been the subject of moderation, and in fact AC himself promoted them in numerous posts. You can easily verify this by searching on EpicSki.

I had the privilege to ski with Eric and Wade regularly last winter, and organized an informal group of EpicSki members to subscribe to lessons. This indirectly may have promoted their business; at least I hope so. Mostly, we just skied and learned effective tactics. I don't recall labeling them.

Dan Egan as Online Sports Coaching, LLC is a principal partner with EpicSki. Given that, I'll let you draw your own conclusions about what has been said in this blog.

Many people have tried to label EpicSki as PSIA for whatever purpose that may serve. Yet the ESA coaching staff includes PMTS instructors as well as coaches certified by other organizations. AS a forum community, most of us don't really sense affiliation with any certifying or teaching organization, and its irrelevant to our consumption of professional services. So being labeled is just a reflection on those who build those arguments. It was precisely that influence we sought to eliminate. We don't label our members as PMTS or PSIA or CSIA or anything else. I suppose that is what this blog is for. I'm curious what label VS1 feels comfortable with. Good luck with that. Pray for an early winter.

Cirquerider

Anonymous said...

"Really, so there was no problem with linking to the Ski the Whole Mountain book?"

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56630&highlight=Eric+deleted&page=4

"I just got a post emailed to me which was deleted....It mentioned some elements of movement from TBTS, but mostly was on the evolution of the technique of Eric DesLauriers. " http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56630&highlight=Eric+deleted&page=13

Cirque, how quickly they forget. To give some context, if memory serves the argument was put forward that linking to Ski the Whole Mountain was not done for purposes of being helpful, but as viral marketing. Given the heavy editing of this and other thread, I have to rely on memory becuase so much was deleted or edited.

This was just one quick search. Cirque was a bit lawyerly in saying that Eric D's book itself was never the subject of moderation. This technically is true I believe, because the act being moderated was the inclusion of a link to his book in a post. The book itself was not "moderated."

I think it speaks for itself.

Anonymous said...

VS, Bolter, and Max all labeled as PMTSers.

Anonymous said...

And banned within a few weeks of each other. Does someone know what posting guidelines they violated?

Anonymous said...

"Originally Posted by Cirquerider
"I should add that changing the words or context of a quote is not discussed on our terms and conditions; but as a matter of common courtesy, should be avoided."

A bit of clarification. The first post I put up from Eski had no modifications to it. That was deleted fairly promptly but I know at least BTS saw it because he sent me a PM about it."

Anonymous said...

I think at least one of the threads mentioned in the linked thread has itself been deleted or perhaps moved to private content, I sure can't find it. This was the "steeps challenge" thread. That thread itself was Epic. Cirque, since he seems to have been involved in all of this, could perhaps link to it with the deleted material?

Anonymous said...

Mr Cirquerider - why did you ban this trio of Epic members?

Anonymous said...

You won't get an answer to why they were banned. You weren't involved, therefore it is none of your business. Did you ask why Flexon Phil and Ron were banned from your mother ship?

None of these 5 cases are any of your effing business.

Any Moose.

Anonymous said...

"His book "Ski the Whole Mountain" and Xteam Adventures ski school have never been the subject of moderation, and in fact AC himself promoted them in numerous posts. You can easily verify this by searching on EpicSki."

Max501 too promoted ESki's book on numerous posts.

ESki said in posts that no active rotary needed.

Anonymous said...

I actually understand the need for moderation. I also understand the fact that it's a balancing act, where even legitimate commercial interests can come into play. But, before giving a blanket denial that someone's book was ever the subject of moderation, don't you think that someone would have checked? Was the assumption that no one else would check, either? Why not just say we heavily edited and redacted some material in which the book was cited, we may not have been perfect but we did our best? A little humility goes a long way.

Anonymous said...

"You won't get an answer to why they were banned."

Because there isn't a reason other than management and moderators decided they didn't want them around. Rumor is they took up too much mind share and moderation time. They had to go.

Anonymous said...

Max/VS/Bolter=Fanboys

Urban Dictionary Definition:
1. A person who is completely loyal to a game or company reguardless of if they suck or not.
2. A pathetic insult often used by fanboys themselves to try and put down people who don't like whatever it is they like.
3. An arrogant person who goes into an outburst every time something he likes is questioned. Fanboys usually acuse others of being fanboys.

Sound familiar?


Any Moose

Anonymous said...

"None of these 5 cases are any of your effing business."

Epic representing itself well.

Anonymous said...

"Sound familiar?"

Instead what you written sound like the reaction to posts by VS-Bolter-Max501 from the status quo.

Anonymous said...

Do all you guys get dizzy chasing your tails?

Keep stomping your feet and having your temper tantrums. In time no one will ever care that this blog ever existed and Gapic will just go on catering to mediocrity. Can't you see that you are just being played with or are you that clueless?

Anne E. Moose

Anonymous said...

With all the anonymous posters here, this is really hard to follow. Someone linked to that awful thread protesting the banning of PMTS last year in June. For the record, I reversed that policy within days of being appointed moderation director in July last year. I'm certainly not going to defend it now.

The post that linked to Eski's sking evolution is here and was never moderated. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=116865#post116865

So, I'm a bit confused. Thanks however for calling me "lawyerly". I assume that was a compliment.

Cirque

Philpug said...

I agree, all these anonymous and whatever variation posts really show lots of guts. Be men and post who you are.

Anonymous said...

"The post that linked to Eski's sking evolution is here and was never moderated. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=116865#post116865 "

You just linked to a post from 2001. Not to anything from 2007. Confused?

Anonymous said...

It's fine for people to post anonymously. People do it all the time on Epic.

Just put a handle at the bottom.

Coldsmoke

Anonymous said...

Why is Bolter banned for this post?

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?s=095d2d82de2ca05d19aeaa91c77ec80a&p=929907&postcount=222

Why Max501 is banned for this post?

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?s=095d2d82de2ca05d19aeaa91c77ec80a&p=929945&postcount=226

Anonymous said...

VS1s original post mentioned modern grooming as one element allowing people to get by with heavy rotary. Obviously difficult snow can be a great bs detector, but too much can also hurt someone by ingraining bad habits. How does he go about introducing people to this?

Anonymous said...

Why ask why?

Why is it that they were asked to respect others opinion's and they repeatedly chose not too?

Why, when ground rules were set, and guidelines drawn, did they keep choosing to go past them?

Maybe you should be asking Max and Bolter these questions? From what I understand is that they had many opportunities to stay, but they decided not to participate.

Why were PhilP and Ron banned from PMTS? Was it spite? Was it because Phil backed Harold into a corner and repeatedly asked Harold to clarify himself and Harold couldn't"?

I guess there is a lot of why's that will never get answered. As they said in "The Princess Bride"..."Get used to disappointment..."


Annie

Anonymous said...

This is the text from the post that Bolter was banned. What posting guidelines did he break?

"Another good post BTS, it would be great if you could drop the first four paragraphs. I don't need another parent."

Anonymous said...

What guidelines Max501 break in last post of his?

"Did HH tell you this? I haven't seen that written anywhere.

That's fine, and I think its great that you qualified that statement as personal feeling. Typically, you state it as fact.

The above is just an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. My opinion is that its great for all mountain expert skiing.

The implication here is that the coaches are lying to their students and using movements they don't teach to ski all mountain. BTW, Jay and Diana both say they are much better skiers now that they use solely PMTS movements for all of their skiing and they are a couple of the best all mountain skiers I know.

Of course the phantom move is not comprehensive. Its only one piece of PMTS. That statement makes is sound like you don't understand the breadth of PMTS.

He skips over skills generally considered to be active rotary because he doesn't feel they need to be used in expert skiing. Doesn't matter if its carving on groomed runs or skiing a 35 degree pitch with bumps you don't need them from the PMTS point of view.

BTS won't see this but I will pose a question. He often makes posts about PTMS as if he has in depth knowledge of PMTS. So I wonder, has he been to camps or lessons?"

Anonymous said...

Oh Harald, Harald you listening?

A couple of years ago i bought and read one of your books, and one of your videos. You had my respect...... then.

However just like a bad politician you have totally lost it (and I'm sure many other people's) by your own words on your own forum. You're such an insulting and closed minded person that taking ANYTHING you say seriously is hard.

At one point in time I wanted to attend your camps, badly.

Now I wouldn't give you a dime knowingly , nor believe anything you say.

You may be brilliant - but your an idiot.

Open mouth, change feet.
Shoot self in foot.

That's you.

Fade away, fade away.


away....



away....



bye bye.....




history.







you.

Anonymous said...

Don't seems like Bolter and Max501 broke guidlines.


NEW Posting Guidelines And Moderator Direction

We are implementing a posting policy specifically for the Technique and Analysis forum designed to improve the experience here, and make moderating decisions more predictable. EpicSki is privileged to have attracted world class experts, coaches, and passionate students who have developed strong knowledge of skiing and coaching and beliefs in how it should be done and taught. EpicSki is an open forum for differing thoughts of ski instruction where coaches/students can discuss and debate the facets of all skiing techniques, systems and doctrines in a respectful manner. All views are accorded access here. Personal attacks (including ad hominem argument), proselytizing, and absolutism (my way or the highway) are not tolerated. Agreement, disagreement, argument, debate, and comparative competition are all good things as long as the participants are respectful of other people and their ideas.

Our moderators will employ the following posting guidelines and moderating strategies in the T & A forum:

1. Increase in visual reminders for the posters regarding the Epic purpose and its policies. You will see reminders posted in threads from time to time, or used to replace a moderated post. For example:

Quote:
Friendly reminder! As a community of open dialog on skiing and snowsports, Epic's stance is that terms such as "right or wrong" and "good or bad" have a poor application in productive technique discussions. Please remember that technique values and experiences are subjective to each person, and it's OK to disagree with another poster's opinions without character attacks and slander. Be aware that satire, sarcasm or facetious comments, intended as humor, may not be read in the tone intended. Disruptive posts may be subject to deletion or closing of the thread.
Thank you!
2. More active moderation: Members and Moderators need to recognize fallacious arguments in general and ad hominem attacks in particular, and take appropriate action. It is pointless to argue a fallacy. Please point out or report Fallacious arguments and Bad posts rather than argue them. Posts or threads based on malicious or fallacious arguments will be removed. If the argument continues the thread will be closed. Repeated patterns of arguing ad hominem will be be dealt with by issuing warnings and infractions leading to possible time out.
3. No Labeling: Just don't let it happen anymore. This is inevitably a prelude to an attack. In general any third party labeling of individuals as "PMTS", "TTS", "PSIA" or similar is not allowed. EpicSki and ESA are also off limits for ad hominem attacks.
4. Acceptance: When it's all said and done, accept that you may not be able to persuade another person (or all persons) to see things your way. Agree to disagree rather than carry out a pointless and endless, repetitive conflict on a point of fundamental disagreement or belief.
5. Moderator Complaints: If you see posts moderated and don't agree, please contact the moderators privately with your question or objection before posting an objection online. This applies to all forums and is part of the site-wide posting guidelines.
6. Posts and threads critical of ESA or its coaches, curricula, or operation will be moved to the ESA forum for discussion or deleted with the note that constructive communication related to ESA is welcomed by nolo and weems. Discussions to improve ESA belong in the ESA forum and regularly occur there in an open manner.

Anonymous said...

"Pray for an early winter."


Cirquerider,


You've gotta pray harder -- it isn't working. And enlist your epic hordes too.

It's somehow odd that folks who ski together happily in winter engage in epic on-line clashes in summer. Heck, I'd even share a slope with Rick as long as he's in front of me where I can keep an eye on him. Bring snow and the peace that comes with it (and the satisfaction of skiing better than 97% of epi ... oops.)

In the words of the latest brilliant epic technique forum thread, early winter would be a reasonably "efficient" and "effective" solution to our problems here, but not as efficient as simply switching a few bytes of data on the epic servers to reinstate 3 certain former members. I'd like to offer this example of efficiency in epic-land, but then I'd wind up commenting on 4 former members, not 3, which would not be effective.

Any Mouse
(not Anne E. Mouse or Any Moose)

Anonymous said...

OK you brainwashed PMS'ers

The question was asked.

Why was Phil and Ron banned from the horrible ste of PMS.

For Phil I know that it was he backed Harold into a corner, with a question he could not answer.
His only answer was to ban Phil.

So, come on what happened to them? Why were they banned from such an inferior site?





PK

Anonymous said...

We don't know the answer to your question. Harald makes those decisions.

Anonymous said...

Maybe you should be asking Max and Bolter these questions? From what I understand is that they had many opportunities to stay, but they decided not to participate.

Epic posting rules don't apply here. Can you elaborate on their many opportunities to stay? From the outside, these chances sure weren't apparent.


Why were PhilP and Ron banned from PMTS?

Which Ron was involved? It doesn't ring a bell. Was it the instructor from Windham or someone else? You appear to have given epic handles; what was the handle on the pmts forum?

Anonymous said...

anymouse

from experience I can tell you that if Rick was in front of you, you would not be keeping an eye on him for long... unless he stopped to wait...

Anonymous said...

Speed control is a high level skill.

Anonymous said...

As far as I know Phil was not banned from the PMTS forum. It was obvious from his posting that he was playing some type of game of gotcha. HH stopped it but did not ban Phil. Instead he told him that he could PM him if his inquiries were serious and if he was willing to answer a simple question. Then he would be reinstated. I wonder if VS, Max and Bolter were given similar offers.

The instruction forums have dropped off dramatically. Although you can watch the usual suspects "debate" ski technique by all agreeing with each other

coldsmoke

Anonymous said...

For the simpletons, the Ron that was banned at PMTS, his handle was "Ron", real tough one there to figure out. The PhilP is "Flexon Phil" over there. But I am sure you knew that, I really think PMTS moto should be "Who? Me??

Annie

Anonymous said...

Coldsmoke is correct. Harald had offered to do an in depth ma of Phil's skiing to demonstrate to him some of the substance of what was being discussed. In many cultures one could argue that when faced with this type of offer the normal thing would be to either accept or graciously decline. Phil instead responded with a series of rhetorical questions. My view is that these took up space on the forum but nothing more. Harald then shortly after told Phil he had to pm him his next post before it could appear, or e-mail if Harald was not online. I would say that's a fairly transparent process.

Philpug said...

Coldsmoke (and mirrors)

Just as people complained about speculation how people were banned from Epic. There is speculation here too.

Harald said that Epic Skiers cannot ski, I merely asked 'What constitutes a skier?" In typical PMTS fashion there was misdirection in the answer and he would not answer the question to clarify his statement. It was misdirected to, let me see your skiing and I will decide, but that was not the question.

I did answer the point regarding posting video of myself, I DID reply that I had no current video to post. I also said, that I have posted video on PMTS in the past, do a search and it is there.

As far as the offer to PM Harald, yes that was there, but you cannot use the PM feature when you are banned, So it was not an option.

Anonymous said...

So you are for some reason unable to use e-mail to contact him Phil? Have you tried?

Philpug said...

The only e-mail I had was for the store and when I used that to send back the Harb Carvers I never received a reply. I really wasn't much worth an effort past that. Validation from Harald is very low on my priority list.

Anonymous said...

I note that Phil doesn't say whether he actually tried to PM Harald and couldn't. Did you try to PM him as offered Phil only to find that the PM feature no longer worked? I'm sure someone could fix that for you if that's the only stumbling block.

Anonymous said...

So you did or did not e-mail and try to re-engage on this point? Or PM? As offered?

Anonymous said...

RE: Coldsmoke


I hope your refering to the so called phantom forums. Where the last poster was Bolter 3 days ago. Where you can watch the competition slurping up HH as fast as they can.


and face it the guy was banned. What part of banned do you idiots not understand.

Anonymous said...

Phil, if you want to take up HH on his offer:

h.harb@harbskisystems.com

Anonymous said...

Waiting for Epic mod to tell why Bolter and Max501 banned.

Philpug said...

If Harald wants to answer my question, he can e-mail me first.

Anonymous said...

Couple weeks after the banning Epicski website launches advertisements.

Ironic that VS1 blog getting traffic now. Almost 100 posts and possiby thousands of page views in one blog entry.

Anonymous said...

Haha, maybe 100 posts, but by 6 people with variations of "anonymous". As far as the views, past the 6 that are posting here, maybe another dozen who come in for a quick laugh. Make no mistake either, they are laughing at you and not with you.

Annie

Anonymous said...

Waiting for PMS to tell why Phil and Ron were banned.

Anonymous said...

Only HH knows.

Why are Bolter-MAx501-VS1 banned? What rules are broke?

Will all PMTS peopeles be ban?

Anonymous said...

Alright then....

Still waiting to hear why Phil and Ron were banned.

What rules did they break?

Will all epic posters be banned?

Ott Gangl said...

OK quit it or all "Anonymous" will be banned !!!

...Ott

Anonymous said...

Only HH can answer the PMTS banning of Ron and Phil. For Epic Cirquerider and Phil are mods and know why the trio got the Epic boot. Why won't they tell us the reasons.

Anonymous said...

I know Harold and his minions peruse this blog as well. So, why can't we have an honest answer for his reasons for banning them.




An e Myse

Anonymous said...

Never a dull moment. I skipped the epic technique fora for two days and missed history in the making.

MichaelA and Rick work fast. Toppling the laws of physics is tough work, but some intrepid skiers need to do it. It's time for them to buy new tuxes, book their tickets to Stockholm, and meet some Swedish royalty on December 10.

This is going to require a big rethink. PMTS was exceptionally efficient and effective under the old physics of Newton, but its status is unclear under the new regime. Since physics has been turned upside down, maybe ski instruction from Down Under has come out on top?

Anonymous said...

Steer left to go right is the new in! There is some symmetry here, because this was one of the discoveries of the old rec.skiing.alpine as well when it had begun its trajectory.

Anonymous said...

I don't think we/you will get an answer on why these people were banned. I don't think people here stomped their feet enough or had enough temper tantrums. Has anyone offered to hold their breath?
What about run away from home? that might work.

Forget Epics rules of not posting why someone has been banned, it is internet etiquette. But seeing how Harold talks to anyone who questions him, I see how you are lacking in this area.

Annie

Anonymous said...

I can't stand all the controversy!!!

Let's proclaim the virtues of the GLM Method - then we can all be banned!

Eni Mowse

Anonymous said...

ESA uses PMTS coacheS - who?

Anonymous said...

"I skipped the epic technique fora for two days and missed history in the making."

The pre-turn...what a novel and effective concept. Worthy of a DVD all to itself.

Anonymous said...

Did banning fix the forums?

Don't look that way.

http://forums.epicski.com/
showthread.php?s=8ee7ac0ff29ae
7b4071ae89dea629eb7&t=71571&page=4

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
ESA uses PMTS coacheS - who?

Not sure.
I'd guess they count Roger Kane as one.
Is Wade Holiday PMTS qualified? What about Eric D, since he appears to get mentioned as a PMTS posterboy.

Anonymous said...

PMTS is a joke. I don't think that these high quaility individuals would want a tag on the end of their name called PMTS.

Anonymous said...

"PMTS is a joke. I don't think that these high quaility individuals would want a tag on the end of their name called PMTS."

Who needs a tag? Grown men can do their own thing and still respect good skiing. Holiday has said on Epic that there's not much distance between Harb and what he and Eski are doing, just without the us versus them. On the one hand the us versus them makes me a bit uneasy too. On the other hand given the malice the exists in skiing, and the cynical gamemanship and wordsmithing you see in some comments here, if Harb were not loud, sometimes abrasive, and proactive in policing his forum, people who did not want his voice to be heard would have buried his forum and message by now.

This isn't just Harb or PMTS. What about Ski Coach. What about the bump coaches. Basically, if you have real world cred for some reason you're not too welcome on some forums.

Anonymous said...

Not so my freind. Epic ski was very tolerant on letting the PMTS'rs try to sway the discussion to a PMTS rant. Until it got out of hand. On the other hand thos other forums shut the discussion down right away.

...and as for Haralds marketing techniques. They are horrible. Eski does not even come close to the way Harald treats his adversaries.


Ya think that might be a little bit of the problem there?

Anonymous said...

None of the banned dudes made threads in question about PMTS. It was others pushing negative PMTS labeling and baiting agenda bringing up PMTS in a negative way whenever possible.

And the Bolter banning is just hilarious. He's a freaking PSIA L3, labeled as a PMTSer because he thinks too much emphasis is put on rotary. Read his last post again.

"Another good post BTS, it would be great if you could drop the first four paragraphs. I don't need another parent."

Those words got Bolter banned. WTF!

Anonymous said...

what a load of tosh from one very uninformed misguided soul who needs to be taken seriously by their friends and family

you my volklskiing friend are so far off base you are not even in the same ball park

good luck in your self obsessed quest

Anonymous said...

Yawn.... I find epic less worthy of my time lately, partly due to the usual late summer slowdown but also because I particularly enjoyed Max_501's wisdom, Volklskier1's perceptive honesty, and the return of Bolter after his year off and his no-BS pro viewpoints.

SCSA (or whoever it really was) made a reasonable argument for simply ignoring epic and I'm trying to internalize it.

Anonymous said...

If all of you are so mezmerized by Bolte, Max, and the likes. Why aren't you all carrying on intelligent conversations on Harbs site? Whats the problem? Why do you need epic's forum?
You all have a forum where you drink the same Koolaid, so there shouldn't be any problem on anyone being banned there.

VS said there was a fixation with Harb.

My freind you are ever so wrong, and need to get in touch with your inner feelings. As well as your fellow PMTS'rs. The fixation here has been with Epic ski.

Anonymous said...

B-I-G assumption made that those whom support the banned trio are on Harb's site. Not the case.

Anonymous said...

Checking back in ,,, expected a comment or two ;-)

Many bears, including mods, have posted comments on VS1's blog indicating a serious misunderstanding of the PMTS forum.

That forum exists to clarify matters of skiing technique, to request MA from other PMTS skiers, and similar PMTS-focused requests. The most important part of the forum is the search bar and we use it before posting because by now most questions have been answered well at least a few times. (And if it's not there, it's probably in Essentials of Skiing)

The PMTS forum is not a general social forum for skiers of the PMTS persuasion. Until recently many of us used Epic for general skiing discourse and contact with the broader skiing world beyond PMTS -- yes we're interested in what else goes on too, contrary the the expectations of some...

In fact, only a fraction of the PMTS skiers you'd meet at any camp participate in any online skiing discussions. And many of them choose Epic, AlpineZone, or other general skiing forums for that purpose rather than the PMTS forum. The decision's simple really: for hard-core technique, MA, PMTS camp info, etc. use the PMTS forum; for skiing posses, skiing humor, trip reports, and the broader skiing world, use a general forum instead.

When I say I appreciated posts by Max_501, Bolter, and Volklskier1, I don't mean just those posts related to instruction and technique. I liked Max's "cool skiing flicks" youtube posts, his legendary gear advice, and his attempt to relate other individuals' skiing to his own. More than anything I appreciated his extreme love and enthusiasm for skiing. Bolter and VS1 represented experienced instructors who didn't toe the *SIA party line, but were independent thinkers and strong skiers. It takes some cojones for a PSIA full cert to say "I do not aspire to ski like that" of a former national PSIA official's skiing or to call an ESA coach on an obvious piece of BS.

There was a post on Epic a long time ago about about physical therapists which roughly said that showing a PT a weak body part was like showing red meat to a starving dog. Sometimes seeing a physics-challenged, know-it-all ski instructor on the Epic technique and instruction forums does the same thing for some good-hearted PMTS skiers with strong MA skills. In both cases, they're motivated by a desire to prevent (perceived) further harm. In both cases, the recipient is as likely to curse as to thank in the short term.

Anonymous said...

Technical content declining long before banned trio gets involved.

Originally Posted by vail snopro:

You have really gone and done it this time!

And this time I'm gonna jump right in and call BS! Right Now!

The reasons behind the decline of decent technical content on EpicSki has absolutely nothing to to with your "feud" between PMTS and PSIA proponents!

It has everything to do with the caliber of the half-a$$ed pros posting their respective gospels here, and the naive public willing to listen to them! There are so many of these skiing evangelists, its like trying to find something good to watch on TV on a Sunday morning. And the din of all their combined voices has drowned out the real content. So much of the JUNK I have read on EpicSki over the past several years has been unbelievably laughable! And like I said- there are people on here just dry as sponges, waiting to suck it up! I really don't blame them, because they do not know any better!

Anonymous said...

More irony - banning the trio hasn't changed a thing, contrary to Mr. Cirquerider earlier post.

Read this:

http://forums.epicski.com/
showthread.php?s=c1808fba0
313f283421ff3976e581b60&t=
71571&page=5

Sorry you gotsta copy and paste each line into the browser address bar.

Quote of the week:

Originally Posted by Skidude72:

Rick, I agree that it is a good idea for you to stop posting now, I will try and undo the damage. But hopefully you will keep reading this thread for the benefit of your future students.

Anonymous said...

Fastman and his "I'm tired of it" posturing are a constant there.

Anonymous said...

Originally Posted by Skidude72:

Rick, I agree that it is a good idea for you to stop posting now, I will try and undo the damage. But hopefully you will keep reading this thread for the benefit of your future students.



Pshaw.

That Skidude makes more of a mess on that forum than anyone else. He has no clue what he's talking about on any subject. And arrogant on top of it all.

"I will try and undo the damage." What a putz.

Anonymous said...

In that thread SkiDude also happens to be right. But Rick will be posting there long after SkiDude in turn is banned.

Anonymous said...

To correct that I should have said that SkiDude may well in the future face some moderator intervention, obviously he's still posting there now and talk of the future is an opinion on where things may be headed, nothing more.

Anonymous said...

The skill to turn

In that thread SkiDude also happens to be right. But Rick will be posting there long after SkiDude in turn is banned.

into

To correct that I should have said that SkiDude may well in the future face some moderator intervention, obviously he's still posting there now and talk of the future is an opinion on where things may be headed, nothing more.

suggests you may be ready for promotion to EpicSki moderator, you anonymous poster.

Anything you write is an opinion. Qualifying it explicitly as an opinion about a potential future eventuality that may or may not occur doesn't change the information content. I appreciated your first post more. It was clear and obvious.

Plain-speak good, PC-speak less good.

sharpedges

Anonymous said...

In that thread SkiDude also happens to be right. But Rick will be posting there long after SkiDude in turn is banned.

To correct that I should have said that SkiDude may well in the future face some moderator intervention, obviously he's still posting there now and talk of the future is an opinion on where things may be headed, nothing more.


This has got to be Skidude posting on his own behalf! ROFL

"Skidude also happens to be right." hahahahahahahahahaha

Anonymous said...

Isn't Skidude a high level CSIA cert?

Anonymous said...

"The decision's simple really: for hard-core technique, MA, PMTS camp info, etc. use the PMTS forum; for skiing posses, skiing humor, trip reports, and the broader skiing world, use a general forum instead."

yaaaahhh

Hard-core kitten MA ;)

Anonymous said...

My freind you are ever so mis-informed.
To really F- up your skiing. Follow the PMS Phantom path. Even try out the Bullshyt turn.

If you really want to improve your skiing go with a Pro. A PSIA Pro.


Hard-core dog MA :-)))

Anonymous said...

Worrying about someone's cert level is another Epic, boyscout thing to do. SkiDude's or anyone else's.

Look at good surfers. Some have various water safety certs, but that's not why they're good. They didn't take lots of formal classes. They don't spend lots of time practicing surfing "inefficiently." They do maintain their fitness, surf a lot, in all conditions, and surf the whole wave. They know surfing is not a summer sport. They also get a variety of feedback from people who know. Pretty simple if you're willing to do it.

RomeRun said...

"And many of them choose Epic, AlpineZone, or other general skiing forums for that purpose rather than the PMTS forum. The decision's simple really: for hard-core technique, MA, PMTS camp info, etc. use the PMTS forum; for skiing posses, skiing humor, trip reports, and the broader skiing world, use a general forum instead."

If epicski open another sub-forum for PMTS discussion and invite those guys back to be the mod, it would be really interesting.

Anonymous said...

My freind you are ever so mis-informed.
To really F- up your skiing. Follow the PMS Phantom path. Even try out the Bullshyt turn.

If you really want to improve your skiing go with a Pro. A PSIA Pro.


Hard-core dog MA :-)))


Friend (fiend?),

If my PMTS experience is what it means to get F-d then maybe we all need to get us some ;-) If you abstain, I'll be first in line to take your share.

I tried the "PSIA Pro" approach first. Those hustlers took my money and gave nothing in return. No surprise really since each one spent most of the lesson unteaching what the previous one had taught me (in the last hour of the lesson after unteaching his/her predecessor's bad habits, ... ad infinitum)

Actually, they gave me a sore right knee and some park-n-ride angulation/anticipation. And their saccharine cheerleading style left me with an inflated sense of my skiing ability.

They did tell me lots of good jokes and I learned about all the A-list and B-list Hollywood celebrities and pro athletes they had taught. And a few bragged of their sexual conquests within said population whenever we passed the panty tree. Not being the People Magazine type, I didn't consider the humour and glamour worth my time and $$$.

But then again, if hearing lewd panty tree stories and jokes or worshipping celebs is your thing then maybe you should stick with the "PSIA Pro" approach. Different strokes for different folks ;)

Truth be told, there are a few PSIA pros I'd love to ski with. Bolter and VS1 come to mind as do some of the All Mountain Ski Pros employees who are PSIA full-certs (as well as those like ESki who aren't.) But these folks have moved beyond PSIA's influence and aren't part of the "go with a pro" campaign you refer to. Here's a peace offering: if you book me a lesson with Allen Riley, I'll take it and pay you what I think it's worth afterwards.

Anonymous said...

"All Mountain Ski Pros employees who are PSIA full-certs (as well as those like ESki who aren't.)"

Having someone well-recognized as a world-class skier within a variety of terrain, who has not gone through the cert process, take a cert exam incognito every now and then could be a first step towards quality control. My prediction, comments along the lines of widen your stance, picking up your inside ski is a fail, don't use your athletic ability, slow it down.

Anonymous said...

The latest commentary on Epic:

Skidude72

Random Thoughts


The TA forums appear to be in freefall at the moment. The quality of posts has never been lower.

-----------------
Got that right.

This one cracks me up:

-----------------
In an effort to halt the slide, here are some crucial concepts to consider.

True Expert Skiers vs.You.

This is an area which very very few understand. I didn’t figure this out myself until about 2002.


You execute your technique perfectly.

No one does it as well as You do.

True world class experts don’t ski better then you.

True world class experts however do ski differently then you.

Understanding the difference is the first step to becoming a better skier

Having a workable realistic plan to bridge the gap from your technique to their technique is the fastest and most effective way to improve.


-----------------------
More claptrap doublespeak from "certified" Skidude.

"You ski perfectly. True expert skiers don't ski better than you do....

...but you need a plan to bridge your technique to their technique so you can *improve.*"

Why do you need to improve if WC skiers don't ski better than you do?

No wonder the TA forums are in freefall.

Anonymous said...

Skidude's post hit the nail on the head.

Anonymous said...

yeppers skidudes righton

Anonymous said...

Skidude is right?

World Cup skiers don't ski any "better" than anyone else? All skiers ski "perfectly?"

That's brilliant.

Anonymous said...

Skidude did not say that. Reread.

Anonymous said...

You reread it! It's right there!

You execute your technique perfectly.

No one does it as well as You do.

True world class experts don’t ski better then you.


Skidude's words exactly.

Anonymous said...

Yah he say I executed MY technique perfectly. He say noone does my technique as perfect as I do. He says expert skiers ski different than I do.

Anonymous said...

SkiDude is da man! He right too. Training forums all f'd up. Crazy shit post there.

Anonymous said...

More irony - Skidude gave ZERO support to banned trio in the stakeholders forum.

Anonymous said...

Trio please come back to Epic.

Anonymous said...

what the hell is the stakeholders forum?

coldsmoke

Anonymous said...

The stakeholders forum is what Max_501 used to belong to before its members failed to save him.

It's an advisory group to Epic management consisting nominally of a broad range of epic members. It was created during the technique forum and pmts wars a bit over a year ago. There's a sticky which describes it,,, just search on the word stakeholder.

Anonymous said...

The stakeholders forum is what Max_501 used to belong to before its members failed to save him.

Max501 was not part of the stakeholder's group.

Anonymous said...

That may be.

But when it was being formed, certain senior members of epic management mentioned him as one of the members.

Not being a member, I have no first-hand knowledge. Apparently I stand corrected.

Anonymous said...

"Apparently I stand corrected."

Not "apparently".

Obviously.

Anonymous said...

I thought he had been mentioned as a member when that group was formed as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he had been on an initial list but for one reason or another was not included in the actual group. Unimportant either way really. Unless whether someone is one of the cool kids, or not, is important to you.

Anonymous said...

RomeRun said...
"And many of them choose Epic, AlpineZone, or other general skiing forums for that purpose rather than the PMTS forum. The decision's simple really: for hard-core technique, MA, PMTS camp info, etc. use the PMTS forum; for skiing posses, skiing humor, trip reports, and the broader skiing world, use a general forum instead."


Riiiight, lets talk about Harold's cats. That is true "hard core technique and useful information"

Now, here comes the" yeah, buts..."

Anonymous said...

This has gotten "boring". Isn't it time to start a new topic so we can beat the same dead horse there?

Phlexon

Anonymous said...

Originally posted by Skidude72

I do agree with you that what I posted was pretty rudimentary, yet ironically we have a promeninent poster here on Epic going against it. Infact, on most threads, we see people going against these basics all the time. Infact, in my view, this is happening more now then ever...hence my point about the quality of the threads being at an all time low.

As for why people dont post....I am not so sure it is about elitism, although, on second thought, there is no doubt that is a big element...I think the main reason thou is so many people feel "what is the point"....there is so much confusion, and conflicting information, misleading ideas. Those who know, get frustrated by the scale of the mess, and and those who want to learn dont try becuase it just looks so overly complicated and impossible to understand.

Anonymous said...

Well, SkiDude may or may not overestimate his ability to reform Epic. My bet is that he does not, but wants to make a point. The key for people is to know how to read Epic. For instance, if a technique guru there says to turn left to go right, it's a good bet that 97% of skiers may find other approaches more productive. If someone plugs some bump skis on there by saying that their construction is almost "race stock," well...reflect on what that implies for a moment. If, as is no doubt true of some Epic participants, you don't know why calling a bump ski near race-stock is an odd thing to do, call a couple ski manufacturers and ask them if they recommend their race skis as dedicated bumpers. Listen to the awkward silence at the other end of the line. Can you see where I'm going here?

When salmon die they fertilize the rest of the stream.

Anonymous said...

Skidude72 taking on the status quo -

In my opinion the status quo is nothing more then a self admiration society. The problem with that is no real value is generated other then stroking the egos of a few posters.

Anonymous said...

I said "apparently" because senior epic management members contradicted you publicly and I have no idea who you are or how authoritative your response is. If you'll identify yourself and your authoritativeness, I'll gladly eat crow and say "obviously" if it is merited.

Here's some more recent epic humor -- and not from SkiDude either.

"More importantly you would never get 2 Epicski boot experts to agree on what color the sky is, much less how any given boot is shaped. "

Anonymous said...

Here's some recent PMS humor.


" OK Ken, we know you can buy all of us, come clean, which mega resort should we buy to set up a full blown PMS ski school."



" Harold. The real Ken Fisher lives in Montana......"

Anonymous said...

I said "apparently" because senior epic management members contradicted you publicly and I have no idea who you are or how authoritative your response is.

Who, when, where?

Anonymous said...

Cirque said:

Things are going just fine leaving them here. The results have been increased activity, greater civility and much more focused discussions among friends.

But one of Epics esteemed instructional members, Skidude72 a CSIA level 4, says things are worse now then ever.

Which is it?

Anonymous said...

Realty check,,,,Epic is a prvate site and the managment can do whatever it wants.

Anonymous said...

about: Realty check,,,,Epic is a prvate [sic] site and the managment [sic] can do whatever it wants.

No one has disputed this. In fact it was mentioned explicity in several comments in the early days of this blog.

Epic is a private site, but its members are private individuals with legally protected rights of association. Several members have exercised their right to cease associating with Epic. Divorce is always a touchy subject; some are amicable and some air dirty laundry in blogs like this.

The only difference is that Epic management divorced the trio and many of the commenters here divorced Epic. Such a shame. A little bit of counseling and a dose of tolerance could've prevented this whole mess.

Instead, the T&A and I&C forums continue to reach new lows weekly. See EJL's inquiry into why instructors were quibbling over the mechanics of undesirable turns instead of focusing on quality. Or the "2 epic bootfitters" comment earlier this week, or SkiDude's assertions. Or even the thread on whether Epic has improved people's skiing in which there were some polite demurrals, a few honest affirmative responses, and some brown nosing responses. Seemingly, even in its heighday epic, i.e. T&A and I&C, didn't do much for folks.

Anonymous said...

Nolo wrote: Do you think the proposition that Tactics + Technique = Skiing would make a great topic for a debate in this forum? I think it could be fun and informative. Any master debaters here who want to take it on?

What she forgot is that she, cirque, and co. sacked the master debaters. This should be amusing ;-)

Anonymous said...

They could ask Rick to start a socratic dialogue. That would be something new?...

They have every right to do what they want. They've made some very distinct strategic decisions, along with some very distinct choices like SSH choosing to give park advice.

Anonymous said...

Boooring. Yawwwwwwn VS, can't think of another way to spew the stupid argument? You remind me of Mexican food, everything is the same, just the same 5 ingredients, only in a different order


BTW, where has Max been, I haven't even seen him on PMtS, not that I allowed on there, he he ha ha. Maybe he has found a new flavor Kool-Aid to drink, the fanboy.

I am still "boring" Boring there, boring here, skiing is boring.

The real Phexon Fil (no Krypton's for me)

Anonymous said...

"Maybe he has found a new flavor Kool-Aid to drink, the fanboy."

All the comments here have been so moderate, I can't see why VS1 doesn't say who he is?

Anonymous said...

Who was Silvretta? Why was he/she banned from epic? what happened to TDK's question about same?

Anonymous said...

Silvretta was never moderated. Silvretta never existed. I'm a bit confused.

Anonymous said...

Yo, Cirquerider - will all Epic members that are labeled as PMTS supporters be banned?

Anonymous said...

Who ban Bolter? What he done???

Anonymous said...

Bolters banning is mystery

list of Bolters last 50 post -

http://tinyurl.com/62fspz

Anonymous said...

Can't you see or are you as oblivious as the other PM t S'ers How thick are you really?

Bolter didn't play nice with the other members. He wouldn't share his toys in the sandbox and was sent home.

Sir K.

Anonymous said...

How come Phil and Ron were banned from PMtS. Could it be that Harold was backed into a corner. And he couldn't answer a question posed to him.

Philpug said...

I guess imitation is flattering for some. Not that I disagree with him.

Anonymous said...

"How come Phil and Ron were banned from PMtS. Could it be that Harold was backed into a corner. And he couldn't answer a question posed to him."

To repeat, Phil could email or PM Harald constructively and post again there. Phil is not irrevocably banned. The relevant thread is still on the PMTS site for people to see. Phil seemingly implied that he could not contact Harald, though he has not responded to a direct question as to whether he tried. Phil has been supplied with Harald's email within this thread of comments, and indicated that he now will not email Harald. If he doesn't wish to post on the PMTS forum that's certainly his choice, and perfectly fine. The condition to his posting, which is that he try to participate constructively, may be unpleasant to him. But he is not prevented from doing so by Harald or others on that forum.

Anonymous said...

Silvretta was never moderated. Silvretta never existed. I'm a bit confused.

http://tinyurl.com/5smsoj

Anonymous said...

Harold never answered Flexon's question, he skirted it because he realized that he backed himself into a corner and he knew he would look foolish if he tried to answer the question. In typical childlike Harold fashion he chose to attack by banning Phil and make him grovel to come back. Fuck that, why would he want to jump through Harold's hoops, just so he could do it again? I don't blame him for ignoring the stipulations. Personally, Harold is the last person I would be looking for validation from.

Here is Phil's question, (as close as I recall without going over there, I just showered) lets see if the brainiacs here can answer it....

Harold said.."No one at Epic can ski"

Phil asked.. "What constituted a skier"

So, what constitutes a skier? What makes some a "skier"?

Phlexon

Anonymous said...

Phlexon has some very interesting locutions...

Anonymous said...

HH answered the question in detail.

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2063
&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

Anonymous said...

He answered it all right, he said that it was carnage on the slopes before PMTS. That really makes sense. Stemmark, Carnage, Mahres, carnage, Klamer, carnage, Plake, Schmidt, Mittermayer, carnage. What a self aborbed ass. He never answered it.

Where am I posting from???

Anonymous said...

harold is speaking about the masses not the eliete skier

Anonymous said...

He doesn't answer "for the masses", all he talks about is intructors, what qualifies someone as a skier?
Someone who skis and is comfortable with their intermediate level, are they skiers? or just someone who does to a PMtS camp?

Flexon Fil

Anonymous said...

when he says epic are not skiers what he means

Anonymous said...

You guys still here?

Get a life.

Cirque

Anonymous said...

As someone generally quite critical of Epic, it's important for me to point out when they do some things right. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=72029 This bumps thread, for instance, has been very good. In asking why, the words that come to mind are humility, respect and reality. The thread is tied to real bump skiing, respects the activity rather than the soul-crusher approaching of attacking it because many guild members can't do it, and doesn't try to recommend the threadstarter try to be more backseat or otherwise hurt his skiing. The actual advice given was good and uncluttered. That's the way an internet forum should be used.

Anonymous said...

More good stuff -

Originally posted by BigE

Objectively, many instructors have low/middling skills. But they think they are great, and so the believe when they pass on their "knowledge" to others, they are doing a very good thing.

Subjectivity is harmful if left unchecked. It leads to the entrenchment of less efficient and effective movement patterns....