I would ask, not demand that if you are a participant on Epic or PMTS that you sign your screen name at the bottom of your post. It gives all of us a way to track the discussion and various points of view.
Posting video:
Many of you keep asking why I don't post video. There are a couple of reasons.
I am quite comfortable with how I ski and I don't feel the need to have my skiing validated. I ski for myself.
When I want my skiing critiqued and I want some instruction, I know who to go to.
I have worked in many many areas of the ski business and who knows I may want to return in y old age. So de-cloaking would be nothing but a negative for me.
I'm not setting myself up as an instruction guru. The demands for posting video came about as the result of the following: El Hombre Rapido posted video of Harald Harb which is against Epic guidelines and then proceeded to rip it apart. He and others then continued to pontificate on skiing and teaching. So a simple request was made by Bolter and Max ( both of who posted video). Post the video of what you are talking about. Now common sense would dictate that El Hombre Silencio would WANT to post his skiing. He is launching a new instructional series. What better way to publicize it. His unwillingness to do so leads you to one conclusion.
51 comments:
One word........
HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!!!!!!
But it is OK for all of you to rip apart the likes of SSH, BB and others on PMTS's site.
Seems like they do quite a bit of it over there, and hardly any on Epic. Only when provoked to a point where they have to defend themselves when they shouldn't have to.
Exactly what are your intentions here?
BB and SSH are professionals who have deliberately placed themselves in the public eye. ESA video and other video (formerly) generally available on the internet clearly demonstrates the limitations of their skiing. For the author of the skiing encyclopedia and a member of the rocky mountain PSIA alpine committee to have the errors and alignment problems shown in his latest image loop does cast somewhat into doubt his status as a professional, but his titles carry the day. He is a professional and open to public scrutiny. As a currently active instructor with a national audience, he should expect it and encourage it. Ditto for Mr. Level 2 SSH sometimes of Copper Mtn.
Hypocrite, you say? Hypocrite? Look no farther than moderator SSH and his capricious enforcement of Epic moderator rules: it's enough to gag on. And then there's Mr. Barnes who's backpedalling so fast he's in danger of setting a world record. His latest? Rotary skill is important, especially not being able to do rotary. Yep, ya read that right but can be excused for scratching your head. Not executing a movement is in his new parlance the highest degree of perfection in controlling the move. Care to see what his encyclopedia says about rotary skills. Betcha is doesn't say that the highest form of rotary skill is not using rotary skill and that's why rotary skill is important. Flip. Flop. Spin around 3 times real fast (rotary), then flip and flop again. Dodge all incoming barrages of reason and deny physical law. Those must be BB's marching orders.
BB and SSH are entitled to ski how they wish as long as they don't present imminent danger to others on the slopes. I don't think anyone would have a problem with them if they stayed away from students and stopped their spotlight-seeking behavior. (Or if they stopped teaching limiting, ligament-straining, inefficient skiing to innocent students and started teaching an efficient, body-friendly technique of any pedigree.)
Sorry, one more comment on hypocrisy. Who are BB and SSH to comment authoritatively on world cup technique in a national forum? What are their FIS points? To my knowledge, VS1 has not claimed expertise beyond that which he has acquired. (Neither has Mr. Harb.)
Imminent danger on the slopes.....
and that is why there are no PMTS ski schools at any resors that you travel to.
Thats what I thought, thank you for affirming that in your ramblings.
You probably can't even find a girlfriend, you're such a loser.
Probably can't even ski.
But you sure can rant!
Small balls too.
Really like that you are afraid to let anyone know who you really are because you may need a job someday.
Don't worry, they don't check ski credentials and videos of out of control skiers to work at MacDonalds.
When VS1 started a blog titled "Epic Ski Sucks" I expected some rants against that forum and its policies but never in my dreams did I expect the vitriol and hatred against individuals like Bob Barnes and Steve Hulquist (ssh) for their opinions expressed freely on EpicSki or any other forum. Posts like that demeans the posters hiding under that "Anonymous" label, shame on you, I'd hate to be your neighbor.
....Ott
Ott:
I think if you review some of those threads on EPic, you will see where it comes from. It's one thing to silence Volklskier, who many of us found to be not only informative and a welcome informational addition not to mention funny , it's another to go after Max and Bolter.
Perhaps Epic should just come out and say that technique discussion that does not conform to PSIA is not permitted. That's what they do on PMTS and it works fine. Just be honest and admit you have an adgenda that is in line with PSIA.
former bear and PSIA examiner
I don't know why Max and Bolter were banned from Epic, maybe someone can enlighten me, I have always enjoyed Max's posting and have said so.
As for me personally having an agenda of any kind, it is to keep it real, I have not been PSIA affiliated for 23 years since after retirement. I have not read nor am I interested in what they teach their instructors, but tearing it down for what it is, is useless because it is what it is and you did the right thing by leaving it if you no longer feel you fit in, I suspect it was because of internal politics rather than technicalities that you left.
...Ott
The problem is, and always has been is the PMTS world needs Epic. So, they can constantly attack them to make themselves feel better about their insecurities. Without Epic, there would not be any drama.
I mean come on. You guys have to degrade anything that walks, talks PSIA. Or anything that has nothing to do with PMTS. To justify your cause. Why not for once, just try to go at it alone. Try to promote your " way of skiing" without all of the banter and degrading of others for once.
Ya never know.......... It might just work.
......and I heavily emphasize the "might" work part.
I will also add "Hypocrite"
Our "host" kept asking for peoples MA to prove if they are qualified to talk at his level. But he is comfortable with his own. Ha.
Max one of the most open minded people? C'mon, this group is one of the most narrow minded group that I have ever seen. They added nothing to any thread but a combative nature.
These guys were given a very long leash... but they decided to wrap it around their own necks. Like their idol, Harald, they lake the ability to hold a discussion and resort to misdirection and never answering answers straight
Mr. long leash,
Can you give an authoritative explanation of why they were banned? What specific incidents triggered it? The rumor is that Bolter was banned for telling BTS he didn't need another parent. Juicy as the rumor is, it's probably not the whole truth, and Epic would be better served by publishing concise explanations for the 3 bannings (vs1, max501, bolter)
That is because PMTS really does not have a foundation to stand on. I do give Max, Bolter, and VS credit for constantly turning the thread around to fit their agenda. To try to turn it into a argument that would validate, PMTS. Which is nothing more than a bunch of past teaching systems, re-worded to look like they came up with something new.
Harold got cats? I thought tPMTS was a 100% skiing forum, So much for more skiing per line and NO BS? No changing the rules as you go along there is there?
How is Harold going to survive with two creatures that are as self centered as he is.
PMTS would be a great teaching system, if it wasn't for the people involved with teaching and representing it.
Epic has no obligation to explain why it banned people. It's a private club, a community with an obligation to the greater good.
The three of them disrupted the place to various degrees, and I'm sure there were warnings before the bannings.
We'll be just fine without them, and with whatever complaints and sympathy exits may occur.
Too many nice, polite, open minded people over there to care really.
And VS, welcome to the world of moderation, i predict you'll tire really quickly of having an "open" forum yourself. Since you're committed to trying to injure Epic, don't be surprised if some of us (and I am not a moderator or owner) coming over here to give you a taste of your own medicine.
You're a jerk - but I don't mind, I'm sure your life reflects it, it probably sucks.
Maybe you can ski (we'll never know) but I sure have no reason to beleive you'll ever be happy.
Oh sorry was that an ad hominum attack against a fallacious strawman?
lol
re: Epic has no obligation to explain why it banned people. It's a private club, a community with an obligation to the greater good.
Close enough. They have no obligation, but it is in their best interest to silence the rumour mill. It's not a private club serving the greater good; it's now an incorporated business entity trying to sell ESA. Still no obligation to explain, but a definite motive to explain to silence the rumour mill.
I suppose it could be argued that they're in fact very forbearing since so many of the moderators' pets "disrupt the place to various degrees."
You want anonymous? VS, when you post video of your skiing, when you do that, I will post who I am. Until then, stop... keep throwing stone is your glass house, it is making you look oh so good.
You really didn't think think through, did you?
Of all the comments here, I do find "keep throwing stone is [sic] your glass house" to be my favorite. No need for screen names in most cases.
Epic is indeed a private club, and the new owners seem determined to take it down a certain path. One might question that vision, but it's not my money banking the business. They might consider limiting their focus somewhat, though. For instance, questions on park and/or hucking. No regular poster on Epic skis park regularly so far as I know. As a matter of conscience, they might simply refer these inquiries elsewhere. Ty Shoelaces does not ski park regularly, but could answer most of these questions, but they've frequently been jumped on by complete idiots with a strong compulsion to post in every thread before someone like him could respond. I could go on. Basically, please be merciful and at least narrow the focus.
....and PMTS is exclusive I guess.
Seems to me they have an agenda also. You might say that they are trying to go down a certain path. Of which I will never understand.
Response to park / hucking comment.
You may be onto something here. Epic was originally founded to allow ordinary skiers (not race coaches and ss instructors) to share their epic skiing experiences. Trip reports, get togethers, socializing, info on different areas, etc are clearly core to Epicski's mission and attract the attention of many posters.
On the other hand, a small number of posters dominate the instruction and technique forums and these forums basically give Epic a black eye. Even the restricted Ask A Pro forum is on whole a negative and is hardly ever used. Perhaps the instruction and technique forums should be put on a time-out (say until Loveland or A-basin opens or for a whole season) or perhaps moved into the supporter-only area for a time-out period. This wouldn't impact marketing for ESA activities because those aren't usually posted in the instructional forums anyway.
Subjectively, it seems that the majority of members banned in the past 3 years were banned at least in part because of happenings on the instructional forums. Does anyone know of stats that would (in)validate this impression?
What Harald does is make sure people know he has camps, this is an area where Epic is indeed lacking. IF Epic wants the ESA in the forefront, they should let everyone know that is it there.
The Park guys aren't Epics customers, they probably are at Newschooler or where ever. The Huckers are at TGR. There are plenty of places out there, it is a big internet.
Harald is probably best described as an evil genius.
"The Park guys aren't Epics customers, they probably are at Newschooler or where ever."
I think that's the point. Which is why things like SSH's advice here http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=59058 says a lot.
OMG:
"I think about the landing as not the end of the air, but the beginning of the skiing following the air"
The only air SSH gets is when Nolo pulls his finger.
just noticed that the statuses of Max/Bolter were changed from Time-out to Banned.
It's understandable banning Bolter is for that "I don't need another parent", but I don't see an obvious evidence to ban model citizen like Max.
Who know why Time-out in the first place, then changed to Banned ?
Too bad I am "*Bored" from PMTS. I just watched 'How to Be an Expert Skier 2' (with the other recently banned person from there) and I would have loved to post my findings on the video and Haralds skiing. Too bad someone hasn't broken it down and done an MA on Haralds skiing.
There is some I liked and some I didn't agree with.
*"Bored" is a PMTS term, such as "Brushed Carving" is a PMTS term for "Skidding".
Phil, I'm the guy who wrote "BB and SSH are professionals who have deliberately placed themselves in the public eye." above.
The same holds for Harald. If you wish, you may post your MA attempt here or on Epic (if your fellow moderators agree). Fair's fair. Speaking of fair, Harald challenged you to prove him wrong and gain readmission from your "boredom-out." He also offered to MA your skiing which was a generous offer seldom extended to detractors of his approach.
....and the Pro's on Epic aren't generous enough to do a MA on PMTS'ers Skiing.
What makes Harald so special?
Discuss..........
Any Mouse,
Who are you? or are you going to hide behind the mirror? I really am not looking for Haralds approval. I will say, I would like to ski like Barnsie on a bad day than a good day of Haralds.
Pt. 2 I am really surprised no one has broken down that video for MA. I am as qualified as most, but I saw much skidding and steering in that video. Not that there is anything wrong with that. ;)
Sorry for the "test" post above. I tried to make this post a few hours ago and the submit buttons were disabled (javascript error)
Phil, If Barnsie's skiing does it for you, then you've found your coach. Congratulations. I am curious about the steering you saw in HH's skiing. Odds are you're using the word differently than PMTS skiers do 'cause that guy don't steer his skis; they steer him.
----- attempted post follows
I haven't seen Eski do any in-depth analyses. Nor any all-mountain or race coaches. That's too bad because I'd love to see some in-depth analyses by Eski. As to the PSIA types, they have a very different notion of MA.
Difference 1) Harald's MA is equally applicable on groomers, all-mountain, and in the gates and his SMIM(single most important movement) will be the same no matter which terrain the skier wants to target. This means that Harald seldom asks "what was your intent" which is the first question before any analysis on Epic. The PSIA crowd by and large teaches different technique for different terrain, so they don't give universally applicable feedback in MA.
Difference 2) Harald focuses on movements and movement changes which are recognizable using external cues which facilitate "rapid" muscle memory change. (there's no magic bullet; it still takes practice to make changes permanent, but he consciously chooses to give feedback that results in the fastest possible learning curve.) Most MA on Epic focuses on "skills" not on "movements." Skills are fine for instructors to bat around in discussions, but the brain learns movements and learns them most effectively with external cues rather than delicate proprioceptive feedback cues which are hard to calibrate. At the motor control level, skills have to be mapped first into movements before they can be executed. Harald bypasses this. (some race coaches who post on Epic also tend to focus more on movements than skills, although they may use different language to describe this distinction.)
Difference 3) Harald and all higher level PMTS certs are skilled at alignment and at boot-fitting. Often, awkward movement patterns are the body's attempt to function around an alignment problem. The underlying assumption in PMTS MA is that the skier may have an alignment or other musculoskeletal problem. the underlying assumption in most PSIA MA is that everything is physically fine. (There've been some heated discussions on Epic this year about whether alignment and/or boot-fitting should be part of PSIA certification. At present, there's very little of this.)
Difference 4) whatever you may think of his skiing style, Harald is recognized as a strong skier the world around. He's been a national team racer; he's coached at the national team level; he's been at the top of the PSIA hierarchy and a member of the alpine d-team; and the list goes on. Most of the instructors who give MA on Epic 1) don't have his bona fides and haven't made public samples of their skiing and their students' skiing to just their ability as skiers and instructors, 2) don't agree with each other in MA threads, unlike PMTS instructors who give virtually identical MA (provided the skiing level and terrain under discussion is within their level of certification for yellow and green level instructors. Blue and Black level instructors are simply amazing at MA.) In fact, often we don't know what level C/PSIA or CSCF/USSCA certification an instructor has when s/he chimes in with MA. This disagreement is troubling; consider the putdown of SSH's MA of cgeib two years ago by a L3 who told SSH he was focusing on mere symptoms and not the problems. And SSH was talking about studying for his L3 and trying to pass it that year. (No disrespect intended for cgeib. His latest video posted last fall was fun to watch, and he obviously has worked very hard on his skiing.)
Difference 5) Harald believes that for those seeking high-performance levels of skiing there is right and wrong skiing, there is good and bad skiing. On Epic, instructors generally engage in relativism asking if the the student was meeting his or her goals. On PMTS, Harald says that to ski better, more efficiently, more in balance, and on tougher terrain, you need to focus on X, where X is the individual's single most important move to change or learn.
Difference 6) Harald has published in AOCBAES II specific tests of each movement pattern that let skiers know if they have mastered each movement to the level needed to take their skiing off-piste as well as a final exam to complete the undergrad portion of the book and move on to the graduate level. This makes self-coaching more effective and allows skiers to test themselves on the areas (SMIM) that Harald recommends for improvement.
A final point. The uniform process of training PMTS skiers doesn't mean Harald's students are molded in his own image. One of his most successful students is Diana Rogers. She skis pure PMTS. And her skiing looks very different from Harald's because she has a different body conformation and a different personal style. A great video of them skiing together entitled "tag you're it" was posted on Epic earlier this year (without naming the skiers to avoid marketing) but the moderators considered these unnamed skiers a threat. You can still see it -- just search for it on youtube.
Obviously, I'm not a good champion for the Epic MA crowd, at least for the most vocal ones who happen to be C/PSIA. Does anyone want to take a crack at championing the MA of Epic P/CSIA instructors? If not, then what about the Epic race coaches?
A closing thought. There are a number of dual PMTS / PSIA certs out there, more than you might think because many prefer their SS Director not know. PMTS is one path to high-level skiing and instruction, one that has a particular focus on video on MA. Epic instructors would be welcome to attend camps and accreditations to learn the PMTS way. Afterwards, they could use it or not or "blend skills" as they wish. It's another certification to place after their name and it teaches superb MA skills. Instructors with a passion for MA should consider this just for the MA training.
“Difference 1) This means that Harald seldom asks "what was your intent" which is the first question before any analysis on Epic.”
That is a key differential. If you don’t ask what the person thinks they were doing (or trying to do), then your basis of helping them is set in your mind, not theirs.
If I write down the number 2, do you assume that I was doing 1+1 and then tell me how to add? How do you know I wasn’t taking the square root of 4?
”Difference 3) Harald and all higher level PMTS certs are skilled at alignment and at boot-fitting. Often, awkward movement patterns are the body's attempt to function around an alignment problem. The underlying assumption in PMTS MA is that the skier may have an alignment or other musculoskeletal problem. the underlying assumption in most PSIA MA is that everything is physically fine. (There've been some heated discussions on Epic this year about whether alignment and/or boot-fitting should be part of PSIA certification. At present, there's very little of this.)”
Isn’t this an example of one of those misdirections – allegedly complain about EpicSki, but you are complaining about PSIA. EpicSki have a separate forum section on bootfitting, have recognised world cup bootfitters on there, and include alignment as an important part of the ESAs.
”Afterwards, they could use it or not or "blend skills" as they wish.”
Strange, but isn’t “blending skills” a big no-no – there’s only one way to ski, the way Harald says so, so if anyone dares to choose to use their own skills along with the movements that are declared as the only true way, then they cannot be followers of the way.
I find this blog Gross and hilarious. I expect this post will be declared “boring” which is nothing like being banned.
"If I write down the number 2, do you assume that I was doing 1+1 and then tell me how to add? How do you know I wasn’t taking the square root of 4?"
This is the type of pseudo-intellectual stuff that I think Epic actually is a good place for.
People sign your posts if you use anonymous so the discussion can be tracked.
volklskier
PS. been busy riding waves but will post more.
[quote]Odds are you're using the word differently than PMTS skiers do [/quote]
As suspected... it all comes down to different words for the same thing.
[qute] 'cause that guy don't steer his skis; they steer him.[/quote]
So, Harald doesn't control his skis, they control him? Interesting. So, there is no reason to take Haralds clinic, just buy those skis? I want a ski that will 4 turns in 20 feet all by themselves.
Phil:
You can do 4 turns in 20 feet based on the movements you guys practice in pivot slips ofr you can tip the skis and use the design.
VS1
Again the misdirection of PMTS core. Change the words and direction. Slip is another word for skid.
Phil,
For a skier to "steer" is to us synonymous with "active rotary" which you know is a no-no with us. Steering is (to us) an inferior way of turning. HH turns, but he does not steer. He controls the skis and they induce any needed torques via contact forces with the snow surface. That's what I meant by the skis steer him. This is the whole passive vs active rotary distinction.
But why worry about it? You want to emulate Barnes, not Harb, so go talk to folks who've trained under Barnes or who've read his writings and encyclopedia. Learn to steer like Barnes and have fun on the slopes.
Since I've got your attention ... I've never tried Hart skis. Which skiing styles are they more conducive to? How do you like their slalom ski?
VS1,
What shapes do you surf? Interesting that you're a ski traditionalist but also a surfer. How would you compare your favorite ski shapes and layups to surfboards? I'm the guy in the other post who commented you need some more positive content.
-Keyboard Surfer
I have a Chris Birch fish that I use a lot which has a thruster setup. I've been taking out the kid's Channel Islands Sashimi and a Flyer with a quad setup thats a lot of fun. Also have a long board. Even with a short board I need float and speed through the water because I have a really bad shoulder and can't paddle the way I used to.
vs1
PS: I like your previous suggestion and will certainly look to make some posts as you suggest.
Anymouse,
The Hart Skis are good for any type technique skier, what ski wouldn't be? The SL is a real nice high level ski that still can be taken all over the mountain.
Redirection back from the misdirection that PMTS'ers are so good at. I wish I had the video here in front of me so I could get the exact time where the "steering" happens. Harald is obviously changing directions of his skis with his feet and not letting the ski follow an actual arc. I call that steering, I am sure PMTS'ers have a "term" for this that is the same action.
LOL,
regarding "Redirection back from the misdirection that PMTS'ers are so good at."
I've seen virtually identical statements many times with PM*S replaced with Ep*c. I know we don't agree on "redirection", but maybe we don't even understand "misdirection" the same way. Sighhhh.
"More conducive" was a way of asking the design speetspot. I fully assumed that they were "good" for all good skiers. My question was more what type of skier do they shine best for? The engineering tradeoffs in long. & torsional flex patterns, tip-n-tail engagement/release patterns, etc always wind up favoring some body shapes and weights and some skiing approaches most. For example, the SS is a pretty good ski for most serious intermediate skiers, but its design sweetspot happens to lie close to PMTS skiing and is called the "magic ski" by some PMTS intermediates.
I'm on the east coast, so maybe I'll have a chance to demo your wares some day.
-Any mouse
PS Sorry if the phrase "good skiers" above offends, but Epic posting rules don't apply here ;-)
Mouse may be speaking a bit beyond Phil. Phil, have you broken out what, design-wise, makes you feel that a "slalom" ski is still good all-mountain? For instance, taper,rise, how much metal, that type of thing? Leaving soft snow to one side, you need to ask things like whether someone likes to get pulled through the finish of the turn, or not, and then relate that to specific aspects of a ski.
-Keyboard Surfer
Phil sniffs bait of Keyboard Surfer and swims away. Must make you more of a man or woman to hide behind such a cool screen name. Post when you are serious.
I see Harold cycles.. He should start a PMTS for that, I am sure 99% of the people riding bikes are doing that wrong too.
This blog is great, it has been 50/50 for and against Epic. Most of the people posting at Epic couldn't give two $hits what you think and htey are 50% of the responses, the other 50% is Haralds drones.
You really didn't think this through, did you VS1?
Oh yeah....
The drones are dilligently posting back to Harald, of their findings on Epic. Even including links back to Epic, like good little drones do.
Pass the koolaid please.
Like I said before PMTS cannot survive without Epic.
re: drone postings and 99%
1 post by a new member of both forums constitutes "drone postings" plural? Get over it. It was one post, not a many page SCSA MA of ESA thread.
BTW, SCSA's number was 97%, not 99% ;-) I suppose the cycling equivalent would be "direct to two wheels" and would eschew training wheels as a learner's artifice which induces improper muscle memory that must be unlearned, <duck, dodge rotten tomatos> sort of like the wedge in skiing.</duck, dodge rotten tomatos>
-Any Mouse
Drones and the wasp imagery are funny.
Ski design and choice? Not world hunger or something else really serious. Still important for people spending their own cash on skis. There is a lot of one-size-fits-all sales talk and hype out there, but also lots of manufacturers who are more than happy to give more info on their product, and help you find what might be right for you.
-Keyboard Surfer
Looks like we're about done here.
Check
Mate.
"Check
Mate."
An end-game gem:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=62773
Keep standing on those tables. Well, please don't, really.
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