Sorry to be out of touch but I was surfing and then doing the long slog over
here with some stops along the way.
There are a number of topics and misinformation that keep coming up in these
discussions. These points keep getting raised by the Epic crew. I can only
conclude that it is willful misdirection.
This forum is not about PMTS. It is about the management of Epic ski banning
people who do nothing but voice an opinion. Often HH's conduct on the PMTS
forum is brought up as an excuse. Let's clear this up right now. The PMTS
forum is for PMTS. Always has been as far as I can tell. It makes this clear
up front It Epic on the other hand pretends to be an open forum. It is not
and that's fine to. Put please STOP PRETENDING!
PMTS success is not based on confrontation with Epic ski. Look up HH's books
on Amazon. Now look at Bob Barnes' book on Amazon. If Epic was responsible
for the success of Harb's book then Barnes would have sold more than 10
copies of his encyclopedia. If you compare the PMTS clinics with those of
Epic you will also see a great deal of difference. If Epic ski forums are
responsible for the success of the PMTS clinics then clearly we would see
more success in the Epic Ski Academy.
HH has taken old ideas and claimed he originated them. This is also untrue.
From what I can tell, his claim to originality comes from his development of
a complete teaching system including alignment that is available to the
public.
As far as MA goes. When someone on Epic post up skiing at the level of HH
and has his experience then I'm willing to listen. Until then it's a bunch
of wannabes running off at the mouth.
So if you want to talk about PMTS VS what P/CSIA offer that's fine but
enough with the red herring BS. It just makes you look stupid.
Although there have been many interesting posts, one I found particularly
telling was from The Rusty. It speaks volumes:
"You can't see the productive discussions because they've been moved to a
premium forum where they can not be interrupted by obstructionists preaching
the "truth" about skiing and ski teaching. Or is it hiding behind closed
curtains in fear of criticism from those who know better? Maybe there is
another perspective? "
This is so telling to the lack of any real leadership or ability to lead by
Epic Ski management. It is also very PSIA. Protect the status quo. Don't
rock the boat and keep it secret.
27 comments:
I understand the desire for a secret club with a handshake. But in this case, the "Hot Tub" and instructor forums? This is the premium content? Really?
Get real.
I applaud you on starting this blog. But, to think that this being a bashing " Epic " only blog is ridiculous. You know, and I know that on either forum. This wouldn't have gotten this far. Maybe a little bit with Epic. But, definitely not on PMTS.
The reich over on PMTS makes sure of that. If it doesn't sound like what they made up, then it gets deleted.
Another question which was brought up before I believe. Is that. Why is/was there more posts about PMTS posted over on the Epic forum. Than that of the PMTS forum?
By the way, have fun in Bejing!
There are far more posts on racing on Epic than on the www.skiracing.com forum, too. And the list of legit race coaches who voluntarily refuse to post on Epic ever again because of the poor nature of the content is pretty long.
In the case of PMTS, Max clearly likes to argue. If he didn't, he would have left voluntarily a long time ago. He didn't, so was banned.
As far as the PMTS forum, it's a PMTS forum. I'm not going to go on a mogul forum and tell them they suck at GS. Plain bad manners.
...and PMTS doesn't have any other sub-forums for discussion?
Let's face people have gotten their hand slapped for not following the rules. As would be expected with anyone being banned on the PMTS forum, and any others that do not follow the rulez.
as far as bad manners is concerned. It is bad manners to start a discussion about a subject dealing with ......
for example PSIA. Then twisting it to fit the PMTS method.
Shame on you.
Since you won't listen to anybody on Epic till you see their skiing is better than Haralds, how about when YOU put up video of YOUR skiing, maybe people will start listening to your opinion.
I find it comical whenever a PMTS'er is looking an argument, they either yell "misdirection" or change the question. Here comes the back peddling.
re: In the case of PMTS, Max clearly likes to argue. If he didn't, he would have left voluntarily a long time ago. He didn't, so was banned.
I was always impressed with how much of a gentleman Max_501 was on Epic, especially when things got heated.
You say he likes to argue. I think he likes to discuss technical issues deeply and to hear many different viewpoints to vet his understanding of skiing. Has it occurred to you that this might be his method of discovery, of learning? And that you've mistaken it for arguing merely for the sake of arguing.
The guy's impressive. A year and a half ago, MichaelA declared war on Max_501. It's taken that long for Max_501's detractors to ban him because as MichaelA himself admitted Max_501 brought great value to EpicSki.
I'm sitting here scratching my head, wondering why Max_501 is banned from Epic instead of being an Epic Moderator, a task to which his demeanor, intimate knowledge of skiing, and genuine goodwill toward skiers everywhere well suit him.
As part of the new commercial EpicSki, how about a general amnesty. There are over 2,000 invalid ids which have presumably been banned. Many of those were spammers, but the rest can click on advertising links just as well as current members to generate revenue for Epic. In some cultures, when a new leader is appointed or crowned, an amnesty is decreed for all petty criminals to signal a bright new era. Why not try that for the new Epic?
I have nothing against Max, personally I do not know him. So, I can only comment by what I have read in his posts. He starts out very tame, as to understand on where the discussion is going. Then it gets twisted in some sort of weird way into a PMTS comparison. Max as well as others that have contributed to the subjects are guilty on all parts. But, what amazes me is how he can go back to the PMTS forum and refute what has been said, as if he was looking for affirmation from the heirarchy, and then go right back in.
Puzzling............
Isn't it.
That I believe is where the problem between the 2 forums rests.
Whadda think?
"This is so telling to the lack of any real leadership or ability to lead by Epic Ski management."
Fish on. You really swallowed that bait hard. Now consider the possibility that you're only hearing what you want to hear. I tried to clue you with the Don Q reference. PERHAPS THERE IS ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE? If you'd do your homework, then you could see some of the things that you think are lacking are simply things that you either disagree with or can not see.
So you think bots are posting to your blog? Hmm - could there be another explanation? One person's "censorship" is another person's "management". If you think Epic censorship is bad, consider how "boring" some other sites are. So you think lousy MA is exclusive to Epic? Hmmm - "Perish" the thought. All you have to do is look "down under" to see that the pot is calling the kettle black. So you won't post your video because you don't want any coashing and others who don't post their skiing can't legitimately coach. Yet you still offer MA comments to others. Hmmm - "so you think that's air you're breathing (in Beijing)?". Some people might see the irony. Some people might have another perspective.
Here's my last tip. If you really cared about the business, you'd still be in it. That you are afraid to let the world know who you really are "speaks volumes". Vanquish your fear and you will find the path to great achievement.
My name is Rusty Carr and I approved this message.
Rusty:
You're getting boring. There has not been one bit of censorship on this site. Take a look at the posts. Every bit of name calling has been tolerated. What's telling is that the juvenile name calling is done by and large by Epic ski supporters! This is quite a long way from people being banned for giving their POV on skiing. Oh wait a minute in my case I wasn't banned for that, I was banned for standing up against a management that thinks that bigoted stereotypes are funny but then couldn't seem to find the humor in people who can't ski critiquing Harald Harb!
My skiing isn't an issue. The fact that you keep bringing it up shows just how lame a group you are. I didn't try and dissect Harb's skiing. I'm not selling a ski program or DVD's or anything else. I'm not pontificating on the intricacies of skiing with the same level of Bull Shit that the Epic crew does.
I suggest you read some of what El Hombre Silencio and SSH have written. It's garbage and they can't ski.
Why don't you tell us why Bolter and Max were banned? What did they do? Ah forget who cares....without them the instructional forums are fading away anyway.
I wil continue to give my POV on skiing and PSIA and Epic here. I will warn as many as possible not to be fooled into wasting any of their money with the Epic Ski Academy.
When most of your ski experience is on an ant hill and you really don't know the history then it's easy to fall into a perspective such as yours. If you knew what a laughing stock PSIA was in the business you wouldn't be so quick to defend and justify the organization.
VS1
PS: by now I am sure that Peters can give you some insight into my skiing if you really want to know.
So, EpicSki Academies are your next target?
Is that because they have PSIA and PMTS instructors teaching at them?
Is it possible you fear them - that EpicSki might just be something that you fear, and as such you have to attack it, because it's something you'll never be - honest.
So, EpicSki Academies are your next target?
Is that because they have PSIA and PMTS instructors teaching at them?
Is it possible you fear them - that EpicSki might just be something that you fear, and as such you have to attack it, because it's something you'll never be - honest.
Your first couple of words really sum it up....
"Sorry for being so out of touch".
I guess "boring" is the new PMTS catch phrase. First Plexon was accused of that for asking HH to clarify his comments that "Epic Skier can't ski", he still never answered what constitutes a real skier. In typical PMTS fashion of misdirection, you, as he did, resort to insults... Ant hill? C'mon, even Harald's juvenile comments are better than that. No, "Your mother wears rear entry boots?"
As far as PSIA being a joke, how many ski areas did Harald get kicked out of with his program? HE is the real laughing stock of the industry. It is funny watching your like praise a false god.
In typical fashion...."It is one thing to be thought a fool, it is another to post and remove all doubt". Keep posting, you are making yourself look real smart. You are doing more damage to PMTS clinics credibility than you are to Epic's clinics. I have seen ambulance chasing lawyers that have more class than you have shown.
Signed,
I'm boring too.
re: Keep posting, you are making yourself look real smart. You are doing more damage to PMTS clinics credibility than you are to Epic's clinics.
That's odd. This blog belongs to VS1. If you read through VS1's old posts on Epic, you'll find several where VS1 told folks not to lump him/her in with the PMTS crowd. VS1 obviously has some appreciation for PMTS, but is an independent ski professional and not part of PMTS.
This blog is about how 2 instructors(VS1, Bolter) and 1 serious student (Max_501) where treated by EpicSki management. It's not about PMTS, except to the extent that association with PMTS helped get these fine epic members banned. How can VS1, who's never attended a pmts clinic, damage their reputation in an unbiased reader's mind? Maybe it's time for some self-reflection...Hmmm?
(Disclosure. I'm an epic member and, unlike VS1, I am a (repeat) Harb customer.) -- Any Mouse
PS How about letting the membership of Epic (or paying supporters) decide? Why not allow banned members to request a poll thread in which the membership can vote for 1 week to endorse or reverse a ban imposed by the moderators. I genuinely do not believe that a majority of members would vote to sustain the ban of these 3 members.
Could be a good idea. How about just doing it for epic supporters, instead of having the god squad all registering to sway the vote?
Sure, only letting paying epic supporters vote is fine with me.
-- Any Mouse
C'mon, vs1, that's not fair.
How can I vouch for your skiing when I don't know who you are? I specifically asked on your own blog a couple of weeks ago for you to give me a hint or two. Are you a member of the JHAF or not?
Do you know who I walked up the mountain with this morning? If you're a card-carrying member of the JHAF, you ought to.
I'm still clueless and I can't give anyone an idea of whether you can ski (not that my opinion would matter in the PMTS world anyway) if I have no idea whether I've seen you ski.
Classic...He says Peters can vouch for him, yet Bob has no idea who he is.
VS, you are the best, what and asshat.
Bob:
I thought you said you knew who I was!
VS1
Suggestion:
start a "Ski Technique and Analysis" post where some of the threads over at Epic can be discussed. I used to learn a lot by reading that stuff before the witch hunts.
MonsterMan
Suggestion:
Let's throw some of those "Phantom PMTS" discussions into the ring over here.
"Bob:
I thought you said you knew who I was!
VS1"
Jeez. Don't you even read your own blog???
Where in the world did I ever say that *I* had any idea who you are?
How about if I type it really slowly so that you can mouth the words as you read them?
I don't know who you are. You know who I am. Do I actually know you? Have we ever met in the real world? Have I seen you ski? I don't know.
If you're so concerned about revealing your actual identity to the world, just email me. It's extraordinarily easy to find my real, live, working email address. I promise not to tell anyone else who you are. If you've paid any attention at all to my posts over the years, you'd know that when I promise something, I deliver.
Just please don't imply that I can somehow validate your skiing for any other readers of this place when I have no way of telling who you are.
That's amazingly lame.
Better yet Bob.
Lets here what Harb has to say about his skiing. Maybe that will make it easier for him to post up something on this blog.
We're waiting.
No censorship? You freely admitted that you've removed posts. Check the dictionary dude - censorship includes removal for "other reasons". Now you're going to whine that "my reasons are good, your reasons are bad". But that's not the point. This blog is dedicated to "challenging and rebutting the misinformation and censorship that is the standard operating procedure of the instructional forums on Epic Ski"
The fact that you don't understand the definition of the word censorship is prima facie evidence that you don't understand what you're complaining about.
The reason why I'm so boring is that you won't accept challenges to your own assumptions. You assume censorhip is bad, but it is not bad when you have a good reason to practice it. You assume I'm bringing up your skiing, when I'm merely pointing out that your actions don't match your words. You assume that I can't read through questionable material and see any worthy conversation, yet I can find wisdom even in your posts. You assume that the Epic instructional forums are fading away, yet your blog is dedicated to rebutting them. You assume that most of my ski experience is on an ant hill, yet you are wrong once again. You assume that I don't know the history of PSIA because I've only been a member for the last 15 years, yet you don't know that I became an instructor precisely because of the widespread negativity about the quality of instruction and PSIA. And finally you assume that I can't see two conflicting perspectives at the same time. Just because I see a glass as half full does not mean I can't see the empty half.
Exposing just a few of your errors has been fun. Alas, I'm getting bored for lack of a challenge. Since your MA for the GP post shows that you've become bored with bashing Epic, my work here is done. Let us know when you stop being an armchair critic, get back into the industry and start doing something constructive for a change.
Congratulations and have fun in China!
Oh and by the way I HAVE skied with ssh and he can definitely ski. I've seen him on double black diamonds, bump runs and deep powder and he is a very good skier.
Just for the record.
Your asinine comments about "he can't ski" "they can't ski" make you look like a total idiot.
Since HH wouldn't answer when Phil asked him - how about you answer.
How do you define a skier? What is the threshold between "can't ski" and "can ski" asshole?
re: You assume that I don't know the history of PSIA because I've only been a member for the last 15 years, yet you don't know that I became an instructor precisely because of the widespread negativity about the quality of instruction and PSIA.
therusty,
Quite an intriguing comment. As a member of the skiing public, let me thank you for trying to improve the state of ski instruction 15 years ago (although I personally prefer the results of another reform effort started about the same time.) You might consider starting a thread on Epic with that statement, your view of how matters have evolved over those 15 years, and your considered suggestions for continued improvement. And any related issues you feel are important to future improvement (1 hr lessons, Ott's concern about terrible equipment and crowded classes, etc.) I'm a Harb fan, but I have friends and family all over who depend upon the normal ski school experience. So, I'm keenly interested in an insider's perspective on how to improve it.
Respectfully,
Any Mouse
Any mouse, the one hour class is almost universal in the Midwest with the exception of a few areas that teach one and a half hour classes, anything longer is private or semi-private.
At least 80% percent of classes are school kids or classes sponsored by newspapers or clubs and consist of beginners to low intermediates.
My teaching consisted of teaching them what they don't know just beyond their present knowledge which often times consisted of unteaching them their bad habits acquired from skiing on their own or from friends. Many do not appreciate paying for a class to unlearn something though that actually makes them ski better.
And that's about how much you can do in an hour, giving them more just confuses most, if they take one or two things from the class and actually practice them, which is rare, believe it or not, I am happy.
Moving along a class of ten rank beginners is hard, you actually have to teach more things, from walking to sidestepping to edge hold to turning downhill for the first straight run and calming their fears.
The good things about school programs is that they get five lessons a season, the walk ups usually come once a season, if that.
The quality of the lesson does not solely depend on the duration or numbers in a class, withing reason, but on the skill of the teacher and the attention and understand of the material by the student. A good teacher can tell by the dumbfounded expression of some student that they don't get it but often are too timid to speak up and he will encourage questions.
To improve the whole shebang lets do what doctors, hairdressers and auto mechanics do, anyone who wants a lesson let them make an appointment and when they arrive, have them fill out a comprehensive self evaluation of their skiing and have someone at the desk who knows the instructors and their knowledge and temperaments and can match them with the student.
When hell freezes over.
....Ott
Ott,
For the first time in my life, I would almost welcome Hell Freezing Over. Too bad so many people are working hard to keep it from happening.
Any mouse
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